What is holiness?

I appreciate the response, as it's obvious you put a lot of thought and effort into it, but I have to disagree with a few things. I do believe that "thoughts" can be sin. After all, if you were genuinely sinless, as you insist we actually can be, you wouldn't even have wrong thoughts, let alone wrong behaviors. That's why I take exception with people who say things like, "We can go without sinning." I don't believe we can, as I pointed out. I may be able to outwardly control my behavior, but I will still think wrong thoughts in my head. I don't even have to do it intentionally, either. They can just pop in my head without warning. Jesus said if I look at a woman with lust I've already, in His view, cheated on my wife even if I never get that other woman in bed. That sounds like a "thought crime" to me. That being the case, I often feel discouraged as a Christian because I see these commands by God to be perfect, blameless, holy, etc., and I'm thinking, "That cannot happen. You are seriously telling us to do the impossible, God."

 

Can you give me an example from the Bible where God disciplined someone for "sinful thoughts"?

I can give you literally dozens of examples where God's discipline happened for sinful deeds, but I can't recall any whatsoever for thoughts, so if you could enlighten me then I'd appreciate it.

The quote you gave of Jesus is from the Sermon on the Mount in which He called Israel back to obeying the 10 Commandments, which has a clear law against adultery. Jesus warns people that sin begins with lust, as allowing lust to take root begins to sully the conscience.

John and James are both in agreement with this in their letters.

John goes into even further detail by telling us that sin is rooted in 3 things (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride). John also tells us that harboring hatred will eventually bear fruit in the sin of murder.

Paul tells us that hatred begins with the root of bitterness, which then develops into resentment, and then blooms into hatred, which then leads to murder.

So you can see that there's agreement between Jesus and the apostles about not only what sin but also how the process of sin works and how it develops.

They were all Jewish, of course, and we see in the Old Testament where God laid down the moral Law for Israel to follow, based on His own character.

Sin wasn't a newly defined thing with Jesus. Sin has been defined the exact same way since God gave the Law to Moses. Jesus was calling all of Israel back to obeying the OT moral law which had been hijacked and perverted/distorted by the Pharisees and other religious leaders.

("You have heard them say ... but I say unto you ...")

God firmly expected Israel to keep the Law when He gave it to them. Israel was in agreement with all conditions as laid forth by God on Sinai.

They were called to be holy. We are called to be holy. We are expected to obey God's law and not sin, just like they were. We are expected, like Israel, to know what sin is, what it isn't, and to abide by God's definition of righteousness and holiness and live accordingly.

Nothing has changed, because God hasn't changed.

The things done away with for us as Gentiles are the ceremonial laws and the legal code. Like the temple holidays, the sacrifices etc because they're fulfilled in Christ. And we live in different legal systems than Israel, so God expects us to abide by the law of the land we live in, insofar as it's not contrary to His moral law.

God's moral law is the exact same as it was for Israel: Love your neighbor as yourself. Show people goodwill and do them no harm. Don't steal, don't kill, don't covet, don't lie, don't commit perjury, don't commit adultery, etc.

Also, take care of the poor.

In Acts 15 when there was that whole argument about "ok guys, which Jewish legal and ceremonial laws do Gentiles actually need to keep here?" --- the consensus was: Abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

So you basically have the 10 Commandments plus 4 more as the basic framework for what sin is and what it isn't.

Clear.

Concise.

Easy.

This is all fleshed out by Jesus, Paul, James and John (again, all of them Jews) to help make us aware of where the process of sin starts, so that we are never in danger of actually committing sin, but can take action early on.

None of these mean that thoughts are sinful, however. Because all of these things are heart conditions, not intellectual states, and certainly not mere thoughts.

There is a huge difference between a mere thought, and a desire that has been conceived and allowed to take actual root by not keeping one's lust and/or pride in check, and that's now actively fighting against one's conscience and making someone contemplate a path to actual sinful behavior, where you now have lost your basic goodwill towards a person and are actually considering wishing them harm or breaking your covenant with your spouse and taking action.

Huge difference.

Bigly.

Ginormous.

What sin is and isn't, is clearly laid out in Scripture. Clearly. From the OT all the way through. We need never be confused about what God expects. It's repeated over and over and over and over again.

So since we all know what sin is, since the Bible talks about it from cover to cover basically, we then also easily know what holiness is, which is the opposite of sin. That's in line with God's character, who cannot sin (because He is holy and is the one who defines sin -- duh).

Also easy.

Therefore, "be holy as I'm holy" means: "I'm God. You are not. I define what sin is. You don't. So keep my commandments to love your neighbor, and you won't be in danger of sinning, and I won't have to discipline you."

The end.

(PS you're of course free to come up with your own definition of sin, which is what a lot of religious leaders do so they can control and emotionally manipulate people better; but God's definition is actually very straightforward, which is why I go by it instead)

 

I disagree. The Bible defines covetousness as a heart condition driven by lust/greed.

Jesus addressed that when He said "you can either serve God or riches (mammon), but not both". Paul addressed that when he said that the love of money is at the root of all kinds of evil.

Covetousness is a voluntary and deliberate giving over of oneself to the pursuit of riches and status at the expense of morality and equality. It's a love of possessions and status, rather than a love of people. It's what causes poverty and marginalization and classes of people who are all trampling on each other on their way to the "top". It's a very grievous sin because it causes someone to not be satisfied with God's provision for them, but always strive for more and more and more and more, being willing to sin against others by lying and cheating and stealing and taking more than one's fair share.

Covetousness prioritizes personal wants over the needs of community. Whereas God prioritizes community needs over personal wants. Which is why Jesus said "trust God to provide your basic needs because you're worth more to Him than a bird." Which is why Paul called the believers to be content with basics such as food, water, shelter and clothing. Because once you stop being thankful for basic provision and you let greed take root, it becomes a black hole that's never satisfied, ever. It becomes a master that will destroy your soul if you let it.

Covetousness, like any other sin, is way more than a mere thought. Way, way more.

More here: http://biblehub.com/topical/c/covetousness.htm

To address the example of "looking at a woman with lust for her" implies very strongly that by the time you undress a woman with your eyes and you imagine yourself having sex with her, you're once again way beyond mere thoughts, and the only thing standing between you and the actual act, is opportunity.

Lust is a serious force which, when unchecked, causes grievous damage.

I'd like to see actual examples from the Bible where anybody was ever stoned or disciplined in the OT or cast out of the community of believers or otherwise disciplined by God in the NT for thoughts.

Got any?

I can give you lots of examples of where people were stoned or otherwise disciplined or cast out of community for actual behavior.

I'm more interested in how people in the Bible interpreted God's commandments by taking disciplinary action, than I am concerned about whatever scholars say who can't give me any actual real-life examples of what their understanding is and how that bears itself out in human behavior as can be seen in Scripture.

We can argue about interpretation until the cows come home, but without real-life human examples our arguments are null and void because they have zero bearing on reality.

 

Yes, that's what I meant by "discipline". Restitution is a form of discipline, evidently. If you stole something, you had to pay it back, plus interest. For every tangible real-life action, there was some sort of tangible real-life consequence.

The pattern I see with sin vs holiness is basically "if you do this ... that will happen" (for good or for bad). At times God intervened Himself (with the more grievous behavior, especially), at other times He let the leadership handle it and only stepped in when they dropped the ball or someone was trying to hide their behavior from them.

Again, we have lots of real-life examples of what was understood to be sin by God and by the Israelites, and how they addressed it by way of discipline, punishment, restitution, whatever. Which can be easily seen in the OT as well as Acts, etc.

Beyond those real-life examples of actual behavior having actual consequences, we're all basically speculating, and one argument is as valid as any other, and things get really fruitless really quickly. They also get really dangerous really quickly as you can see in the Inquisition for example, where people were burned at the stake as heretics for mere confessions of beliefs. The Inquisition is a perfect example of the final outcome of religious thought policing and fear-based oppression. No thank you! I'll take God's justice system over man's any day!! It's so much more straightforward and freeing. Jesus came to bring freedom, not burden us with minute things that paralyze people because they make us afraid of thinking or breathing wrong. If you leave people to it, then you get us all arguing about what defines "modesty" (for example) by bringing rulers and measuring hem lines. Nope. Way too complicated. Just cover up your bits, when in doubt use more fabric rather than less, and go about your day and be actually productive.

I only ever go by real-life biblical examples, and by trusting the Holy Spirit to convict me of actual sin in my own life. Which He has been doing, extremely reliably, for years and years. Never for singular thoughts, either. Not ever. Always for either behavior, or an abiding and consistent heart condition causing certain behaviors, that needed to be rooted out (always more efficient to pull the root rather than plucking away at leaves and twigs, yes?).

God only ever operates in reality, never in speculation. So that's what I go by, these days. And, so far so good.

 

If anger itself was actually sinful, Paul wouldn't be able to say "be angry, but don't sin" (Eph 4:26).

Evidently there's a cognitive dissonance happening if anger = sin based on one statement Jesus made, when in another statement Paul made, anger and sin are two separate matters.

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, Paul was a Jewish Pharisee. Both knew the Torah.

Yet their statements seem contradictory. Anger evidently cannot be sin and not sin at the same time.

So which is it?

 

1. The qualifier is "without cause" in translations like the KJV and some others. The validity of this qualifier being in the original document is debated among scholars. Anyway, to me the kind of "anger" that Jesus talks about which God sees as sinful, is evidently that of acted-upon hostility at several levels of intensity, leading to several levels of consequences. Again, I see nowhere in Scripture where God actually disciplines anybody for mere thoughts or emotions. I only see reassurances during moments of fear, or correction being brought for example when the disciples were happy that the demons were subject to them. Verbal correction being far different from actual judgments for actual sins.

2. John does say that the person who hates his brother, is a murderer. By the time you hate another human being to the point of actually wishing them off the face of the earth, then that's obviously a murderous heart condition that requires serious repentance.

3. If you truly think that Jesus actually meant the emotion of anger in itself being sinful (how can anyone control that, anyway??), then we still have the problem of Paul contradicting Jesus in Ephesians 4:26.

 

God commands us to be perfect. Wrong thoughts or wrong feelings, even if not acted upon, and even if they're not out and out "sin" (still not sure what I believe in that regard) are far from being perfect. How are we supposed to be perfect, then?

 

Let's look at the word "perfect", shall we?

James 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Greek word translated "perfect" here is τέλειος, which means the following:

brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

It doesn't mean FLAWLESS (who gets to define that, anyway??). It simply means MATURE.

In other words, when you're a grown man, and God expects you to be perfect (i.e. mature), He expects you to leave childish/immature thinking behind and function as a grown-up and make grown-up decisions.

Take responsibility. Don't make excuses. Own your decisions. Work for a living. Act like an actual adult instead of an old child. Don't have tantrums when you don't get what you want. Be rational, think for yourself, use common sense, use wisdom, learn from experience. Submit to God's authority and Fatherhood. Learn from Him how to be a parent, and teach His ways to your own children.

This is what the word "perfect" means in the context of these Bible verses. Again, it doesn't mean "flawless" when comparing oneself to some ideal version of what a "Christian" is supposed to act and look like. It doesn't mean that there's some idealistic standard that nobody can live up to, that's way beyond what we're reasonably capable of as human beings created by God living here on Earth.

Of course you can live up to growing into a mature, reasonable adult!!!!! Anybody can. That's how God has created us to function, and these expectations are absolutely 100% in line with how we are created. They're also not complicated, but rather very practical and very reasonable.

So when Jesus tells you to be perfect, like your Father in heaven is perfect, that means He expects you to mature into adulthood and act like a man once you're over the age of, say, 18 or whatever. Simple as that.

Replace the wishy-washy word "perfect" (which can mean anything you want it to mean, really, because it's sooo subjective) with the more concrete and practical and objective word "mature", and voila, suddenly you know exactly what's expected of you. God is a very practical and reasonable God, who can reasonably expect adults to act like adults, don't you think?

If you want to be perfect in God's eyes, then master the art of consistent, daily adulting. Get to that place of maturity where nobody needs to teach or guide you any longer, where you are self-directed and can be relied upon to function as a husband, father, employee, responsible citizen, etc. Where you no longer require supervision for every little thing.

So that in turn, you can teach the younger generation how it's done. Because the hallmark of perfection/maturity is that the student now becomes the teacher, through years of consistent practice and mastery of the subject at hand.

 

If we are required, in the here and now, to be perfect in order to get into Heaven...none of us is going there.

 

I know that you're Reformed and that you therefore approach the Scriptures from a certain angle.

I too am Evangelical, but not American Evangelical. I actually read the Bible in German from time to time, and when I'm wrestling with the meaning of something, German often helps me clarify things.

The word that is translated as "perfect" in English, is translated as "vollkommen" in German.

The basic sense of this word is "you can't improve upon this". It's a very clearly defined word that carries a very clearly defined meaning.

Perfection and maturity in the sense of "this is complete and no longer in need of improvement" is the exact same. A mature person no longer needs supervision, teaching or guidance. They function fully and don't need help anymore.

When you've obeyed a commandment of God after you recognized that you strayed from His path, then God is satisfied and nothing further needs to happen. Recognizing that you strayed from the path and getting back to it, is the very core and meaning of repentance.

The thief recognizes that stealing is wrong, and he gives back what he stole, plus extra. He understands that his greed drove him to theft, and he recognizes that greed is something that needs to be resisted when it first rears its ugly head. He learns to be satisfied with a modest life where his needs are met and no longer worries about what his neighbors have or don't have, but happily works for his room and board and gives thanks to God every day for His provision.

That's perfection. That's maturity. That's completeness.

This is the line, I think, that certain people step across and manipulate by trying to make us believe we can't obey God's commandments to their fullest, when in fact, yes we absolutely, 100% can.

I don't think God has to resort to psychological tricks of "let Me give you impossible standards that you can't achieve, to convince you of your salvivic need for Me". Because that's like trying to convince someone with lungs that they need oxygen, when in fact they've been breathing all along.

Our need for God is clear. We live in His universe, of His provision, by His grace and goodwill every single day of our lives here. We already need God 24/7. Whether or not we recognize that need is immaterial. Because as long as we're breathing, we're operating exactly as created. Or, as engineers like to call it "working as intended".

I grew up with impossible-to-achieve standards. It's a psychological method to keep a person under the control of another. It's manipulative. It's psychologically damaging. It's a fear-based method that causes anxiety, because the person can never be certain of themselves or their ability to make sound decisions. No matter how hard you try, it's never good enough. Ever.

My Father isn't like that, and I won't for a second believe that He is.

There comes a point when good enough is, in fact, good enough. You know when that point has arrived because your conscience is clear, you get a sense of freedom and certainty, and you're no longer bogged down by the guilt of wrongdoing.

The Pharisees weren't in fact "good enough" because they had perverted the commandments of God and added their own, to keep people under psychological control.

Jesus' yoke is easy and His burden is light. The commandments of God are amazing. His laws are perfect, and obeying them leads to freedom, peace, harmony, and strong communities with people who are supportive of each other, where nobody abuses each other, and where everyone has enough. Where the law of love rules everything.

People often read Romans as "law bad, grace good". That's not at all true! God's laws are perfect, and it is His grace that leads us to WANT to obey His laws, rather than fighting and resisting against them. It is grace that gets to our childish heart condition of wanting to break a rule as soon as we're being told that there's a rule.

"Don't touch this wet paint" ... say that to an immature child ... what's the first thing they want to do? Touch, touch, touch, touch.

Say the same thing to a mature adult who recognizes why the "don't touch this wet paint" rule exists ... and they won't touch it. They weren't even thinking about it. Of course I'm not going to touch this wet paint because I don't want to have to paint again. Duh.

The law is made for the transgressors. It's not for the righteous. It's for the immature jerks with no sense of community who have not yet learned to let their lives be governed by love. People who are healthy don't need a doctor. People who won't speed in a residential zone because they see kids outside playing, don't need a 25 MPH speed limit sign. They're going to slow down anyway.

Bottom line: the less love you have, the more rules you need.

After you've been saturated with grace and you're a person of maturity who now understands that God's laws are good and based on love, because God is Love you want to keep God's laws. All the time! You're thankful for them and you model your life with God's laws as your boundaries.

Show me a person in love with Jesus, drawn by His grace, who is a mature believer and has been taught properly, and I'll show you a person who keeps God's laws perfectly, every time.

He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The perfection of the law is love. Love and holiness are the exact same thing. Perfection ... maturity ... holiness ... they're all about love, 100% of the time.

Totally achievable and totally doable.

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TLDR version: Love your neighbor, all the time, because that's how you achieve holiness and perfection in the eyes of God.