Well, the European gym room cubicle option could work in America... if American women were ok with naked men next to them. However, most American women are not ok with naked men, who aren't their husbands, next to them, even if they are in separate cubicles and out of sight. Sure, some American women might be ok with it, but that is in quite the minority. Most Americans like a sense of privacy and things not being awkward. Naked men being around naked women is typically awkward, at least in American culture. Unless it's consensual sexual activity, of course. Well, if the European parents would be so quick to perform vigilantism on a perv getting himself off courtesy of their nude daughter's presence, why would they be ok with putting their daughter in that position in the first place? Do they seriously think most men are chaste and wouldn't get sexually aroused by nude teen girls in their vicinity? As far as the question about public pervs at Finnish saunas making the news, I don't have access to European news stations and even if I did, something tells me even if there were sexual escapades going on it wouldn't be reported since Europeans are more liberal about nudity and sexuality in general. It wouldn't be newsworthy to report it. In many places in Europe it's not uncommon to see female nudity on tv, and not even "adult" cable channels, either. Regular broadcasting stations. That being the case, with public sexuality and nudity being so common and accepted, why am I to believe public sexual activity at a European sauna would make the news?
So you have no real understanding of Tango's suggestion or my input re: saunas, yet are adamant about what would or would not work in America. Right.
San Francisco is now adopting open-air urinals, with no gender specificity, as if it really changes anything - it's pretty much open-air already, though now there will be plumbing. Shoulda been that way from the start, without all this cultural sensitivity to going. No walls to conceal dangerous situations and health hazards, and no begging business venues to let one use their facilities, which they refuse. Also, no need of special privacy rules, so camera surveillance can be set up for public safety. If you are shy, just hire a mean-looking street person to watch your back 8)
Clarify, point by point, what exactly I was wrong about and why specifically it it was wrong. Merely proclaiming, "you're wrong" is not particularly convincing. That's something a 5 year-old resorts to. I mean, if I'm so blatantly wrong about everything I said, you should easily be able to demonstrate how. As far as knowing what would and wouldn't work in America, I'm an American. I was born here and lived here all my life. I've lived here 45 years. I think I personally know more about American culture than you do. The majority of Americans (didn't say all) are not in favor of these new transgender bathroom/locker room laws and most (didn't say all) would not be in favor of European style gym cubicles open to all genders and ages in one room, even though everybody's behind separate cubicles. For the exact reasons I outlined earlier. Even if you apparently find that "prudish" by your European standards or whatever.
Apparently, stupidity is in vogue these days and it's driving more people to come up with more stupid laws and policies. Well, I say we go to the next step and one-up things and just get rid of stalls all together. Let's have toilets in plain view and we can all experience the "joy" of the natural, and beautiful, process of other people taking a dump right out in the open. :
I didn't say you were wrong, I said you don't know what you're talking about. 1) You said 'most American women are not ok with naked men, who aren't their husbands, next to them, even if they are in separate cubicles and out of sight'. Do you have a statistic for this? 2) You then assume that 'some American women might be ok with it, but that is in quite the minority'. Again, statistic? 3) You assume that a shared locker / shower room is awkward - why? 4) You ask why European parents would put their daughter 'in that position in the first place' re: being exposed to some public pervert. Well, public is the key word here. 5) Are you assuming that most men are incapable of controlling themselves, and would lose control the moment they realized a naked girl was in the stall next to them? 6) European cultures having a different attitude towards nudity doesn't mean that 'sexual escapades' wouldn't be reported on. 7) Nudity on public television (at least here in the UK) is restricted to after a certain time slot, same as in North America (or Canada, at least). Should I continue? Certainly, but you don't know how familiar I am with US cultures. You haven't provided any reasons, I'm Canadian, and your concerns - putting transgender bathroom laws to the site - are unwarranted.
And the difference is? Sounds like splitting hairs here. Well, seeing as how I don't believe every person in the United States has taken a survey on these subjects, I don't know that I can give you hard and fast firm "statistics," but, from conversations I've had with people I know in person, all the social media I see (like Facebook), blogs, and the replies from readers of those blogs, news stories, etc., it certainly looks to me that most (again, not all) Americans are not down with the transgender bathroom laws. Same applies with the idea of just making locker rooms multi-gendered. The consensus from a large percentage Americans seems to be that American government has lost it's damn mind and gone too far. I tend to agree. Do your own research. Ask all the Americans you know if they'd be ok with their nude teenage daughter, little girl, or wife around naked men in the same locker room together even if everybody was separated by cubicles. Something tells me most, if not all, would say they weren't ok with it. In fact, I may even post a poll here to see what others here would say about it. Because most Americans associate naked bodies with sex. You are just not going to have most American women and men being naked in front of each other (or even just behind cubicles), taking showers together (or even separately but in plain view of each other), without it being "sexual." You're just not. And, again, most Americans (yes, there's always going to be people of both genders who are comfortable being nude around strangers, or even exhibitionists who get sexually aroused while being nude around strangers and would be quite happy to be nude in front of others) are not going to be comfortable with things being "sexual" with a total stranger. Yes. That doesn't answer my question, though. I asked why European parents are fine with allowing their daughters to share a locker room, even if behind cubicles, with men knowing that it's very possible, and quite likely, that man next door, who's aware a naked girl is next to him, may be acting lewdly (yes, I'm referring to masturbation just to be clear) because he's "getting off" on the idea that he has a naked girl so close to him? I'm going to be perfectly blunt. Yes, I believe that most straight men would get some kind of sexual thrill (though not necessarily leading to masturbation) at knowing a teenage girl or woman was nude and just a few feet away from them, even if they were behind a cubicle and not even in view. Just the idea of them being naked and so close would be sexually arousing. Sure, actually seeing them nude would be even more enjoyable, of course, but, men will take what they can get when it comes to sex. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not aware of nudity comminly being shown on regular broadcasting stations in America. My point is that just shows, with nudity being shown on major broadcasting stations in Europe at all, that nudity, and sexuality in general, is kind of normalized there and looked at as, though pleasurable, it's "no big deal." Things that are "no big deal" don't make newsworthy subjects. If you feel you should. I would be willing to listen. I'm not going to say or imply you know absolutely nothing about American culture, but, let's be real. There's a big difference between being on the outside and learning academically about American culture and being fully immersed in it and living there since birth. Actually, Yes I did. I can even go back and highlight them in red or something. The issue is not that I didn't list reasons. It's that you don't agree with them.
The difference is that I didn't say you were wrong. I said you had no real understanding of Tango's suggestion or my input re: saunas, but are nevertheless adamant in thinking that Tango's suggestion would not work in America. In other words, I didn't comment one way or the other on whether you were right or wrong. We're not longer talking about transgender bathroom laws, we're talking about the viability of cubicled locker rooms that are shared between both sexes. We're also no longer talking about whether the American government has lost its mind. All the American's I know - and I know a lot of Americans - have no problem with Tango's suggestion. So most Americans are immature? I doubt it. You are paying attention when I write some form of 'cubicles', right? Why does any parent allow their daughter to go out in public around men knowing that it's very possible, and quite likely, that men may act lewdly around them? Which form of ridiculous do you want to go with: (1) women can't take care of themselves and require protection from men, (2) men who can't control themselves around women anyway? I think you're projecting. So you want to claim 'I'm an American and I know more about American culture than you do!' but also, 'I'm an American and I know just as much about European culture - as if its monolithic - as the guy living in Europe'? No, you're wrong. Ever watch HBO or AMC or The Shining on whatever station is playing it? Whatever you seem to think is happening in Europe but isn't being reported on because it's 'no big deal' is not happening. Correct, just as growing up in the Bible belt does not mean you have a great gasp of the culture in California, Hawaii or Alaska. You haven't. You've created some convoluted scenario concerning men who can't control themselves at the thought of women. Since we're not talking about the Congolese jungles, I can safely say that the vast majority of men aren't anything like what you're describing.
Ok, then, be an adult and actually say one way or the other if you believe I'm "right or wrong" instead of playing some kind of head/word game here. Christians are supposed to be honest and not play games with each other. Ok, but they are related topics. They both involve the subject of people of both genders being in close proximity to each other in various states of undress and whether it's ok or not. Then they are all obviously liberal Americans. No socially conservative American is going to be ok with transgender men going into women's bathrooms or men, transgendered or otherwise, sharing locker rooms with women and little girls. It has nothing to do with "immaturity." It's called "biology." God designed men to be sexually aroused by women. If you have a problem with men getting erections at the sight, or even thought, of a naked woman and you'd prefer we just become asexual eunuchs instead, take it up with God. He designed our sex organs and how they function. Just because Europeans have somehow convinced themselves nudity isn't somehow sexual (and I don't really think they have. It just somehow seems more "enlightened" and "progressive" for them to portray that image), doesn't mean Americans are obligated to follow suit. Sure, and I don't think cubicles are going to be enough to prevent problems in American gyms. If it genuinely works in European gyms and there are never any problems, and I have doubts about that, then, hey, great for Europeans. It won't work here. There will be problems with it. If we do, however, start doing away with separate facilities here and making everything "unisex" because Uncle Sam says to, I am not using public bathrooms and locker rooms anymore unless I can use a single room, like the "family" rooms you sometimes see in public facilities. If those are done away with, I'm permanently done with public restrooms and locker rooms. Period. I don't believe in parents trying to protect their daughters to the extreme of them never being allowed in public. That's going a bit far. However, parents allowing naked men to be a few feet from their naked daughter doesn't sit well with me. I'm quite astounded that you actually think so many men are so chaste, almost asexual, around women they know are nude. And, yes, I know. You keep driving your point that everybody's behind cubicles. I still contend I don't think it matters. First comment...please stop with the armchair psychology. Second, I'm man enough to admit that if I was in a cubicle next to a woman I knew was nude, particularly if I had seen her previous to her going in and I thought she was attractive...well, yes, it would be a bit arousing. I'm not saying I would start pleasuring myself in response, but, yes, like any married heterosexual Christian man, I would have to fight off some inappropriate thoughts. Just like you've done research on things American, I've done the same with European places. Sure, those are cable channels. I can guarantee, though, a woman's genitalia, bare breasts, and bare butt are not being shown on ABC, CBS, or NBC. At least not currently. I don't believe my ascertains about men are "convoluted." Most men think about women, often naked, and sex. A lot. Sometimes, their thoughts are at appropriate times involving appropriate people. Sometimes, it's no in both scenarios. Your discomfort at that truth, and your wishing it wasn't so, doesn't suddenly make it "not true."
I am a conservative American Christian male and I have no problem with anyone using the bathroom in any restroom they wish. I'm not looking, so I don't care. If I see someone else looking, them may never be able to look again.
Then, you're a minority among conservatives. Most people that identify as conservatives are traditional. Traditional is men use the men's restroom, women use the women's restroom. It had always been that way. It wasn't broken, so, it really didn't need fixed.
I can promise you that you've been in the bathroom at some point with a transgendered person (woman presenting herself as male) and didn't know it. It did not affect you at all. The percentage of transgendered persons that present as the opposite sex but wish to use the biological sex bathroom while dressed as their presenting sex is almost zero. So, the point is, that transgendered persons already use the bathroom they want to use. This is much ado about nothing, except for a political drive for transgenderism to be declared "normal." The proposed bathroom laws, whether that passed in NC or Target's "use the bathroom you want" policy, are meaningless.
Why does it have to be a matter or right or wrong? You're speaking on things you're not greatly informed on, i.e. ignorant, and that's that. You don't know what the majority of American's think about shared gym cubicle locker rooms, and neither do I, so I can't say who is right or wrong. One involves a person of the opposite sex entering into a room that has been hitherto designated for the opposite sex, while the other involves a room that from the beginning has had both sexes (not genders) in mind. They aren't equivalent. And God also gave men and women intelligence, self-control, etc. There would be problems because...? (Every man ever can't control himself? The blatant misandry!) I think men are capable of controlling themselves. If you have a problem, you have a problem, not the entire sex. So out of all the things you have to do: check the time, change, focus on your exercise routine, check the time, change, shower, think about any other errands you have to do, etc., you're going to let your mind drift because you know there is a woman somewhere in the change room who's changing or showering? In the words of Paul, self-control. Why even let yourself think about it in the first place? And yet you describe shared locker rooms as 'parents who allow their teenage daughters to be around naked men'. *slow clap* I've yet to see those things on the BBC, ITV, Channel4, Channel5, 4E, etc. Teenage boys, or men who lack self control.
Well, Kierkegaard, I've said my piece. You've said yours. We don't agree on anything, as usual. I don't feel like beating a dead horse in this regard. I saw recently that it's being put on a ballot in Washington State, where I live, for the transgender bathroom/locker room law to be repealed. I intend on signing it. Like I said earlier, the original system was not "broken." I don't think it needed to be "fixed."
We can fuss all we want about what the person in the next cubicle might or might not be doing but sooner or later we have to accept it's silly. What if you're the woman in the very end cubicle and the next cubicle along is at the very end of the men's room? Are you going to avoid that cubicle in case the guy just through the wall is getting excited at the thought of you with no clothes on? What's to stop the guy looking at the ladies going into the women's changing room and then getting hot and bothered in the cubicle in the men's room at the thought of them getting undressed? The exact layout I described works perfectly well in the UK. When my wife and I went swimming together we shared a changing room, which also meant we only needed one gym bag and to use one locker. It means fathers with daughters or mothers with sons don't have any awkwardness, the issue of which facility transgender people use goes away, and doesn't seem to create any real issues. If people are uncomfortable because they are naked while in a totally private cubicle while someone else in an adjacent totally private cubicle is also naked there are bigger problems than which facility people should be using.
Another thought, it's all very well to say the system isn't broken, but why is it considered acceptable to expect people to undress in front of total strangers just because they have comparable anatomy? I don't particularly want to undress in front of a bunch of men I don't know and don't particularly want to see them undress either. Why are private cubicles so hard to accept?