So, at what point? (Loss Of Salvation)

I know that's what you're looking for and I'm trying my very best to not give it to you.

*words words words words words words words words more words blah blah blah*

 

God help them.

 

Are you still on that kick?

 

Of course I don't believe that everything is relative, which I hope is understood after years of forum interaction between all of us, so why even go there?

 

I have in fact not, but ok ....

*failure to communicate*
*does not compute*
*rebooting ... *

 

I'm relatively done with this here thread. You are frustrating me. I'll see y'all in a few months.

 

Just wanted to clarify that by "you" in my statement of "it depends on how you define salvation/perdition", I was addressing "the participants in this particular thread, as well as the wider Christian collective" (i.e. believers in the biblical Jesus who was physically here for 33 years, died, and was resurrected).

I can't imagine that the biblical subject of "loss of salvation" to be something that the world as a whole even concerns itself with to begin with, and other than actual Christian believers I've never seen anybody even talk about any of it.

Same goes for "fruit" which we as believers have a general common understanding of, again, as addressed by verses in the Bible, which we're discussing in a Bible Chat on a Christian forum.

I'm 100% fine with being a relativist in this context, which I see as narrow to begin with. I'm not necessarily willing to make it even more narrow than it already is, because I find from personal experience that the more I try to be "correct", the less I'm able to walk in freedom and experience unity with people who also believe in Christ and do their best to follow Him, while not necessarily agreeing on every detail.

With that said ... if we can put this thing to rest now, I'd really appreciate it.

 

I believe those who believe in soveriegn grace are the ones who put the most emphasis on once saved always saved. Come to think of it why not start a thread on predestination and the belief of osas?

 

MY VIEW ON 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thessalonians 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Colossians 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


I thus reject OSAS but I also embrace "security." I hold that BOTH Law and Gospel are true - equally and fully.

To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.

I hold that Justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE, united, indivisible doctrine - so when any part is absent, so is Justification. Looking at the Law verses, it seems that perhaps it IS possible for faith to no longer exist (if otherwise, all the warnings would be misleading if not wrong?). I would theorize that justification (narrow) can terminate when faith does. Now does that actually happen in practice? I can't say dogmatically, but again, God warns about this. This is how one person theorized this: Bob commits some sin. He sincerely repents ( by faith, claiming Christ) and thus God forgives (as He promises to do). The next day, Bob commits the same sin - and repents in the way and God forgives, as He promises. This goes on, every day, for 7982 years. Only for Bob, this becomes just a daily exercise..... before he sins, he knows he will "repent" and God is thus REQUIRED to forgive him. And God does, because where there is faith, it is what God does. But there comes a point when all this is "cheap grace" a GAME Bob plays with God's heart, the Blood of the Lamb being nothing but a license to do as he pleases....and this works to weaken his own faith, until it is..... perhaps.... gone. Then Bob commits that sin..... says his little chant..... and God does not forgive - not because God isn't true to His promises but because His promise is that where there is faith, there is forgiveness.... Can I affirm that theoretical possibility DOGMATICALLY? No (and I don't). On the other hand, I can't affirm OSAS either. Law and Gospel are BOTH true. They simply need to be applied correctly.


Thank you for the conversation and your insights!


MY view...


- Josiah (the newbie)



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