Read elsewhere something about predestination which gave me a new view. I quote: 3. The third issue I have with an Augustinian inspired reading of Romans is the notion that election is personal rather than corporate. Try reading Romans 8:28-29, so often quoted on the personal level, not as referring to individuals but as referring to Gentiles as a group—i.e., as supporting the larger point Paul is making in Romans (in #2 above). We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. Who are the “those” Paul is referring to? Individuals who happen to have a conversion experience, invite Jesus into their heart, convert to Christianity? Or does it refer to the shocking truth, now revealed, as Paul claims, by God through him, that Gentiles now are in Christ and therefore every bit as “elect” in God’s mind as Israel? In fact, as Paul goes to great lengths to argue in chapter 9, maybe this full and equal inclusion of Gentiles was God’s plan all along—not a last minute change of plans, but what he had decided and known (foreknew, predestined) long ago, even as Israel’s story was unfolding from the days of Abraham? That is the point of those supposed “election of individuals” prooftexts in chapter 9: they are about Gentile inclusion into the family of Abraham is God’s plan from of old. Of course, Gentiles are made up of individuals, but again, that is not the argument Paul is making. He signals as much in 9:6-7 (where he says that “children of Abraham” does not equal “Jews” but Gentiles, too). Full article - https://peteenns.com/fall-augustine-really-screw-everything/ ----------------------- Paul's message seems to be, hey Jews, you are not the only people who are elected -- any longer -- but by the foreknowledge of God the Gentiles (as a group) are now also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son. Get used to it! [Q] - Consistent with the rest of the Scriptures?