Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by פNIʞƎƎS, Jan 15, 2016.

  1. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Yeah I'm pretty much in the same camp as Rabbi and Trust. That's what I understand to be the situation with the USA as well. It's not there.
     
  2. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    Exactly.

    JerUSAlem, anyone? ;.;.
     
  3. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    :.: :.: :.: :.: :.:

    ;:h; ;:h; ;:h; ;:h; (That's me beating on of the dead 4 horsemen, too)

    ;.;.
     
  4. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    I don't know that I'd specifically say it isn't there, but if it is it's not clearly identified in a way we could recognise. Maybe the USA is one of the beasts, maybe it is mystery Babylon, maybe it is one of the other players. Maybe it's none of those because it ceases to exist by then, maybe it's none of those because it just isn't a major player in the end times. I suspect it's just as easy to push our own ideas into our agenda whether we've determined (based on whatever criteria) that it is a specific player, or it's going to collapse and break up, or whatever else.
     
  5. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    To be fair, if your logic is based on the fact that it isn't specifically named in scripture...many other nations aren't mentioned specifically, either. Do you believe the U.S. isn't there (why exactly do you believe that's the case, by the way?) because it simply doesn't exist for some reason?
     
  6. IMINXTC

    IMINXTC Time Bandit

    I think the New World is an offspring of the Old World and as such, not recognized in prophecy as a nation per se.


    Some have considered the "Young Lions" of Ezekial 38:13 as the British Isles and the New World, particularly the US, as their extensions.


    But I see the US as a political entity made up of many nations, or races, and not specifically identified as a nation in prophecy.
     
  7. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    That makes at least some sense. If "Israel" referred to the people of Israel rather than the patch of land you can walk on and point at on the map, then what we currently call Europe or England or America or whatever are arguably more like melting pots of nations than nations as such.
     
  8. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    Since Revelation was written to the early Christians of the Roman Empire, it seems somewhat a stretch to incorporate any nation that they would have had no concept of.
     
  9. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    The original readers knew exactly what Revelation meant...
     
  10. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    Sure, even if we assume that the USA of today does clearly represent one of the major characters in the Revelation it's hard to see anyone taking it seriously enough to consider it the inspired word of God if it talked of this strange land that nobody had ever heard of.
     
  11. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Bingo! Same of Ezekiel. Why would the Jews Ezekiel wrote to care about him writing about another country on another continent over 2,000 removed from them?
     
  12. TomH

    TomH Well-Known Member

    For sure, when Scripture was written, there was no room for speculation. This idea of the west saying "but what about us?" Is a little self centered. It isn't and never was about "us" in any shape or form.
    We should be content that we're going to be bit players. Advising and or financing the end times.
     
  13. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Which nations, specifically, does Revelation supposedly mention?
     
  14. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    Morally corrupt Rome and morally corrupt Israel, and their impending judgment.
     
  15. TomH

    TomH Well-Known Member

    This. :l:;
     
  16. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    So, according to the book of Revelation, these are the only nations that will be on earth at Christ's return? ???
     
  17. TomH

    TomH Well-Known Member

    I think it means they're the only ones that matter.
     
  18. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    No, they were the two nations that were affected when Jesus manifested Himself as their great and terrible Judge long ago, which played itself out first of all in the fall and destruction of Jerusalem and the disbanding of Israel as a nation with the scattering of the Jews into the diaspora. Although it's disputed when Revelation was written, and whether or not it has anything to do with Jerusalem/Israel at all -- its fall was certainly predicted by Jesus Himself in His Olivet Discourse, however. The fact that Israel/Jerusalem with its corrupt religious system was judged by God is undeniable, and that system certainly also played a part in the heavy persecution of the very early Church (as described in Acts).

    The sacking of Rome by the Vandals and the final and complete unraveling of the Roman Empire ("Babylon") with its religion of emperor worship (the "beast" and the "false prophet") is the main theme of Revelation (along with the obvious admonition to the early believers to stay brave and remain faithful to Jesus until death through it all -- hence Jesus being shown as their resurrected King who was in control of the entire thing from start to finish, and who had not forsaken them, even though things would get worse before they got better, evidently).

    Regardless of when you date John's writings (before or after the events in AD 70) -- Revelation's first 19 chapters are all about the persecution of the early Church and the final judgment of her most vicious enemy (enemies), the Roman Empire (and possibly the old corrupt Pharisaical system).

    Nothing in Revelation chapters 1-19 has to do with "end times" anything.

    The physical return of Jesus, the final Day of the Lord couple with the physical resurrection of people, has nothing to do with that part of it, and is described only in the last 2 chapters (starting at Revelation 20:11).

    People have been mixing apples and oranges with Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse, and things are being lumped together that actually have nothing to do with each other --- that's how we've ended up with the kind of inconsistent theology that is espoused by Tim LaHaye and others (such as in the "Left Behind" book series).

    No other nations apart from Israel and Rome are the focal point of any writings in the Old or New Testament that are (mistakenly) often interpreted as "end time events." Because no other nations were on the "radar" of the writers at the time, in context.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that no other nations matter; they're simply not found in the Canon of Scripture, except marginally. Although the final two chapters of Revelation (which are in fact about the final days/end times) are all-encompassing in their mention of the resurrection and judgment of all people everywhere, with neither Rome nor Israel being given any special attention at that point at all.
     
  19. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Not sure about other nations, I was addressing your question:

    "As an American citizen, I'm kind of interested in knowing where the United States is in end time prophecy. If it is in end time prophecy, that is."
     

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