How to reconcile Hebr 6:4-6 and James 5:19-20 ?

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by ProDeo, May 14, 2018.

  1. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream


    Hebr 6:4 -
    For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. [ESV]

    James 5:19 - My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. [ESV]

    ----------

    If the red part in James means spiritual death or the loss of salvation how can it be reconciled with Hebr 6:4-6?

    IOW, what does James mean with will save his soul from death ?

    For the sake of the discussion I might play DA role, but likely will give up quickly :)

    So please shoot and hit!
     
  2. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    They are both consistent.

    From an Arminian perspective, Hebrew 6 is talking about a saved people that reaches a place of apostasy, a removing from one's position, and can therefore no longer be saved again.

    James is talking about saved people that commit sin and someone calls them back to faithfulness, thus keeping him from wandering so far down the path that they become a Hebrews 6 apostate, thereby "saving his sould from death."

    The James guy is just starting down the way Perdition on Apostasy Road, flirting with sin. He has not yet reached the no u-turn zone.
    The Hebrews guy has already reached Perdition, having completed his path on Apostasy Road. He's done.


    And you can tell Jason I said so...

    :)
     
    ProDeo and TrustGzus like this.
  3. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    So your understanding of will save his soul from death is that the James guy is still saved ?

    [DA] It doesn't state: will save his soul from [upcoming] death. Death seems to be already a fact. [/DA]

    I will tell (J)esus (A)lways (S)aves (O)bedient (N)ewborns ;)
     
  4. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    Yes, the James guy is still saved.

    I think it's a bit of a strain to say that a brother already has a dead soul.
     
  5. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    I think it might be simplest if I post what the Reformation Study Bible notes say for the/a Reformed perspective.

    Hebrews 6

    Hebrews 6:4–12 (RSB:ESV2015E): This sober warning has been variously interpreted. The main suggestions include: (1) The author is referring to genuine Christians who lose their salvation. (2) The warning is an argument directed against a particular Judaizing heresy that is so serious that embracing it would lead to the loss of all hope of salvation. (3) These verses are giving a warning that is only hypothetical. If such a falling away of a true believer were to happen, it would certainly be permanent. However, this falling away is impossible for a true believer because of God’s work of preserving His people. (4) The author is describing the apostates of vv. 4–8 in terms of their profession and the blessings they appeared to share with genuine believers up to the moment of their apostasy. Although Jesus saves completely (7:25) and has made perfect (complete) forever (10:14) those who hear His word with faith, the author exhorts the readers to prove the faith they profess by their perseverance. This interpretation stresses that nobody is saved by a mere profession of faith, that many people put up a good show of faith without ever truly having it, and that those who profess faith without possessing it are in view. These who fall away demonstrate that their faith was never genuine to begin with (cf. 1 John 2:19).
    Given the clear teaching of Scripture that those whom God has truly saved will persevere in faith to the end (3:14; cf. John 10:28, 29; Rom. 8:28–30; theological note “Perseverance of the Saints” on p. 1994), option (1) can be safely rejected. While option (2) is plausible given the original Jewish-Christian context of the epistle to the Hebrews, it seems too restrictive to limit the application of this text only to particular Judaizing heresies. Regarding option (3), in light of Scripture’s teaching on divine election unto salvation (Rom. 9:1–29), it is certainly true that in one sense, the warning of Heb. 6:4–12 is hypothetical for the elect. By definition, the elect simply cannot fall away. Calling the warning hypothetical, however, might have the unintended consequence of implying that we need not take the warning seriously. But since we work our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12, 13), it is by taking such warnings seriously that we remain in the faith, by the power of the Spirit. Thus, it seems that option (4) makes the best sense of this passage and the rest of the witness of Scripture, and it has the advantage of agreeing with option (3) that God will keep the elect—all those who have true faith—from finally falling away.
    This reading of the text does not preclude the possibility that someone who appears to be apostate may in fact be elect and just going through a period of severe backsliding. In any case, perhaps the most significant warning delivered in the passage is this: without faith, proximity to God in the fellowship of His covenant people is no blessing; rather, it subjects apostates to more severe judgment.

    The comments on James are similar to RK’s though obviously the Reformed don’t think a truly elect individual will/can sin to a point of spiritual death.

    James 5:19–20 (RSB:ESV2015E): 5:19 wanders from the truth. To stray into sinful patterns of thought and behavior.

    5:20 brings back a sinner. The care of the souls of the community is a matter of concern for every member, not only church officers or the clergy. Mutual help and encouragement are required.

    cover. Refers to God’s covering of sins with forgiveness (Ps. 32:1; 85:2), for in the repentance and faith by which a wayward sinner is returned to the Lord, God pardons the sinner’s transgressions.
     
  6. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    James 5:19 - My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. [ESV]

    [DA] death doesn't sound as saved. [/DA]

    [DA] Which can be translated that Jason has a point. [/DA]

    Whith "has a point" I mean that it is not necessarily the whole truth, but is a part of the whole truth, the sum of points being the whole truth.
     
  7. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    The Gospel according to Jason -

    James 5:19 -
    My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth [ and loses his salvation ] and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death [ and regain his salvation ] will cover a multitude of sins.

    I don't buy it that on Monday you are saved, Tuesday you are not, but on Wednesday you are back in. That in a Christian life there were xxx moments you were not saved. That's a gospel of fear.

    I prefer to read with the words of Jesus in Matt 5 -

    21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    And thus -

    James 5:19 - My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth [ and is in danger of hell fire ] and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death will cover a multitude of sins.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  8. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    As Paul said to the Galatians, Jason is teaching another gospel, which is not a gospel at all.
     
  9. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    I’ve clicked the “ignore” option for Jason. He has nothing useful to say and he is not teachable. He needs to be confined to Areopagus or banned. If not, then ignoring is all I can do.

    Good thing they’re banning those terrible IcyHippos while letting this unteachable heretic run amok.
     
  10. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Missionary moderating is the technical term, but as in the dating world...
     
  11. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    It's like we are back in the (ahem) good old epi days.
     
  12. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Ok. So much for ignoring Jason. I just addressed him more but I think in a good and necessary way and as a model.
     
  13. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    He for whom I was banned.

    Go figure.
     
  14. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    You were banned over epi?
     
  15. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    Yes, he was spouting his silly "sinless perfectionism I am the apostle of my house church and I take poor little idiots under my wing and lead them in all truth" bit.
    If memory hasn't failed, he was teaching that "the CHurch, the Bride of Christ" is one level of believer that will live in the New Jerusalem on earth, that other believers who had not been sanctified properly would be outside the New Jerusalem but on earth, living in outer darkness and working to support the New Jerusalem, and everyone else would be in hell.

    I called Epi a heretic, we went back and forth, a ModeratorWhoShallNotBeNamed had just in the post or two before said almost exactly the same thing, yet instead of "chat to mods," the moderator took me on in the thread and told me that my style was not becoming a Christian, etc.... I called him out for his hypocrisy in the thread, pointing out that he had said almost the exact same thing in a much harsher tone just before me, I told him that if he was going to moderate me he should moderate himself first.and within seconds I was banned for life.

    I'm sure that thread/posts have been deleted long ago.
     
  16. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Interestingly, RK was active at BF yesterday. Did you log in under your original name?
     
  17. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    Yeah...just to check the status.

    Was probably on for 30 seconds
     
  18. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    It starts here which is public, the warning - https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/249368-What-is-Grace?p=3044512#post3044512

    There is nothing in between from Ath and RK (the two addressed) except #339 - RK - I second the emotion. Then one hour later in #340 - BOOM.

    The heat J-son currently gets is certainly as much as Epi then, if not hotter.
     
  19. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    At least we got one more pearl of wisdom from RK as he recounted a bow hunt he went on in a forest that had aisles.
     
  20. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    As far as Hebrews 6, I've heard statements about it being a "reductio ad absurdum" which means the whole thing is so absurd, it can't actually happen. Which undergirds the security we have in Christ, and not the opposite which it's often turned into. People who treat Christ like a revolving door believe in what I refer to as a "Pocket Jesus" who is basically a figment of their imagination, and they pull it out of their back pocket as it suits them, to win some argument or manipulate somebody or whatever their goal may be. This particular version of Pocket Jesus is often used by people who have to threaten others with the possibility of losing their salvation, unless they come to church more, donate more, quit drinking, stop wearing shorts, yada yada yada .... in order to keep them attending their churches or doing things their way ... or else #byefelicia, off to hell you go! It's plain ego-driven fearmongering that nullifies the grace of God and has people going down dark rabbit holes because they live by fear, not faith.

    I remember a statement somebody made once along the lines of "all we did every Sunday night during altar services was re-save all the Christians." That is absurd. Where is the power of God? Where is the grace of God? Where is the ability of God to not only save but also keep, protect, nourish and grow? How weak is this "God" that it takes so little to get away from Him "forever"? After He went through all that trouble with all the dying for us and such? Cripes.
     

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