Fruit and the people who eat it

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by DaniH, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    In my example I was talking about a Protestant and a Catholic, assumed to both be believers in/followers of Christ within their respective denominations, so I'm still not sure what you mean?
     
  2. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    There are saved Roman Catholics who do not trust in their work, but in the work of Jesus Christ. There are Protestants like that too. There are RCs who are trusting in their works as part of the means of justification and they are not saved. There are Protestants like that too.

    So a believing RC or Protestant have no substantive difference in feeding a poor person.

    A poor person wouldn't probably care if a justified person fed them or an unjustified person fed them.

    But feeding poor people isn't the means of justification. Sometimes atheists probably feed poor people too.

    What are we aiming for in this thread?
     
  3. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Hmmm. It seems I worded the whole bit about "works to achieve justification" awkwardly because the Catholic in my example would have had faith to begin with also.

    Derp.

    Not really aiming for anything, just wanting to know what people think about the subject matter of fruit and trying to verbalize some of my own. :)
     
  4. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    All true Roman Catholics do have faith. So I'm sure your Roman Catholic in the example has faith. But their doctrine does not teach justification by faith alone. Feeding the hungry could be seen as meritorious by a RC. Most likely would be seen that way.
     
  5. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Okay but if they have saving faith that connects them with Christ, then what does it matter if they consider their works meritorious? Maybe they'll just get extra credit?

    I'm a pretty simple person so pardon me for not seeing what the problem is ...
     
  6. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    What is saving faith? Does Catholicism have such a thing?
     
  7. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Or do you mean Saving Grace?
     
  8. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    If one believes that one is earning salvation because of meritorious works, then one is not believe that grace alone saved.

    Welcome to th Rformation.
     
  9. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Catholicism does not teach earning salvation by works, they too believe that salvation happens by grace alone. But from what I understand, where Protestants teach that faith is the only required response, Catholics teach that faith and works are the required response. With which I can't argue, because James stated that faith without works is dead, and how can dead faith do anything at all?

    I call "saving faith" the response of trust and acceptance of God's free offer of salvation, and then off you go following Christ from that point on. I don't know what else to call it; maybe you have a better term for it?

    From what I also understand, the Reformers formulated their doctrines in direct response to the excesses of the utterly political and thoroughly corrupt Catholic church that back then had turned Christianity on its head until it had become unrecognizable. The Reformers did not attempt to build or formulate Christianity from the ground up; as a matter of fact Luther himself tried to affect reform from within Catholicism but found he couldn't do it. Everything Luther formulated was in direct response to what he had been encountering within Catholicism at that time.

    Catholicism then underwent its own reformation, as well they should have as it was a sad state of affairs.

    Catholicism today isn't the same as it was back then, and Luther would probably respond much differently to it.

    I'm also probably misunderstanding "meritorious".

    Words are hard.
     
  10. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

    Thoughts?
     
  11. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Say what now!!!
     
  12. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    He's just being fancy...
     
  13. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    My initial thought is that we're incapable of meriting Grace for ourselves.
     
  14. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    True enough. But able to accept it when called.
     
  15. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Yes but they're already saying that in relation to God, man really can't merit anything like we understand "like for like" to mean.

    Also in continuity: These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

    I think it's worded weirdly, but basically I see it as a call to continuous prayer to receive from God by faith, after the initial connection has been made. Which is in keeping with what Protestants believe although we don't word it as such. Jesus did tell us to ask in prayer, and James did tell us that "we have not because we ask not".

    Because: 2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God.

    They already clarify that anything we get from God is because of Christ, not because of anything we've done to earn it.

    It looks to me as though they foundationally believe the same thing Protestants do about salvation/justification, they just word it differently.

    More here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm H
     
  16. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    When you look at what TrustGzus quoted on it's own it seems a crazy statement but when you read it in context with the rest of that part of the Catechism you see it already stated many times that you are saved by grace through faith first and that we cannot do anything to earn that. Grace and faith are an unmerited gift from God.

    They don't believe in OSAS just the same as a lot of Protestants, myself included, don't believe it. Claiming Christ but continuing to live your life as if you never knew Him except for an hour or two on Sunday's isn't living a born again life.

    That's not to say that Catholics don't have some loopy doctrine, tradition and dogma because they do. But at the core they believe in Christ, repentance and the gift of grace.
     
  17. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I think when reading the paragraph I quoted in context, it's still loopy. Nothing said before or after changes what is said in the paragraph I quoted.

    2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

    No one can merit the initial grace. But then we merit for ourselves and others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

    Where in Scripture do we merit grace? And for others? And to attain eternal life? What passages gel with this?

    If they truly believe grace alone, why speak of meriting grace for the attainment of eternal life at all? If it's grace alone, where does merit come in at all?

    Yes, they do believe in Christ, repentance and the gift of grace. No informed Protestant denies that. Attach "alone" to these concepts or look at how they explain merit and things change.

    Do we think the Reformers and the counter-Reformers had a big misunderstanding? Do we have figured out what they all missed?
     
  18. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    The spreading of the gospel and letting Christ shine through you with love -> Good fruit --> others heeding the call of being saved by grace through faith.
    You don't find in that which you quoted them saying that -my- good works will merit/gain salvation for another unless you ignore the rest of what they have said. Why they worded it in the way that they did is beyond me but a lot of what they do doesn't make sense to me.

    Despite the claims of many Catholics do not teach that works must be done before you can be saved by grace through faith.
    After you have been born again if you have no good works/fruit? Then your faith is dead.
     
  19. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    What does merit for ourselves the graces for attainment of eternal life mean? How do you understand that?
     
  20. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Exactly as I just wrote it above.

    Look bro, if you believe in OSAS then we may as well just say that we disagree now and always will as I am firmly in the NOSAS camp. I'm giving you my opinion of what Catholics teach in this area based on years of reading and studying it.
    I'm not a Catholic because I don't agree with a LOT of what the Catholic church puts out there and believes. Some of it is freaky and some of it is just stupid.
    But you already know that the Protestants didn't leave the RCC and come up with all of their own theology and doctrine on the spot. Our cornerstone theology and doctrines were retained when we left and the dross was burned away. How ironic that today we have more denominations than you can shake a stick at and some wacky craziness in a lot of them.

    If you listen to Catholic sermons - which I have- you hear grace, faith and Christ's work on the cross preached. Not works first and the rest after. At one of the council's of Trent ( I can't remember which one) they stated that anyone teaching that works merit salvation will be anathema.
     

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