Evil Now, Good Later?

Discussion in 'Devotions' started by The Parson, Jun 8, 2017.

  1. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    People are rebellious, want what they want how they want it and have free will. All sin is rebellion against God and it comes naturally to us as anyone who has ever raised a child can tell you. Children aren't born thinking that lying is wrong they are taught it. Children aren't born knowing that taking something that doesn't belong to them is wrong they need to be taught it and etc etc.

    We are always tempted and our flesh has an ingrained want to rebel. The good news is that when we are reborn/born again we are filled with the Holy Spirit who gives us the ability to overcome temptation. Sometimes we give in. It happens to the best of us and anyone that claims sinless perfection is a filthy liar.
    At the same time willful ( consciously choosing to) sin should be an aberration in a Christians life. And if we mess up and do it anyway? If we aren't getting convicted to repent ( turn way from it and not do it again) then we need to spend some serious time on our knees asking God why and for help.
  2. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    But then again, just a thought here. I believe that before we were born again, we did sin naturally... Kind of like what Jude said: Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    But after we're saved, that sin doesn't come naturally. ie. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Just a thought.
  3. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    I disagree . The sin nature ( I hate that term by the way but it's the most common so ) the sin nature still resides in the flesh, however, we come alive in the spirit. That's why we are told to live in the spirit and not the flesh. The flesh is till there bro and Paul was pretty open about his continuing temptations and failings in that regards. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts us and warns us and shows us areas of sin we didn't even know we had.

    And the question of "Why would we need an intercessor if our temptation is gone and we never sin anymore" is a pretty big one eh?

    Sin should be a mistake and a rare things for a Christian I agree. But just as you said, you still mess up. So do I and so does everybody else from the apostles all the way down to grandmas and grandpas and the children who will be born today.
    Yes we are sanctified and yes we are justified but that's all Jesus and grace not anything we can ever do ourselves. If course we have to obey and we will if we love God.
    name me one person besides Christ and Enoc that measured up to some form of perfection. Why haven't they? Because the flesh is still there and always will be -until- we are called up and changed in the blink of an eye. Our transformed forms will be new and different I think.
  4. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Yep, I've heard that argument and respect it. Don't completely agree, but that's neither here, nor there... I take the very old view of the sinless soul once we're born again. (1 John 3:9) That sinless soul, through the Spirit of God that we're sealed by (Ephesians 4:30) and our spirit in obedience to the Holy Spirit, has the flesh, that isn't born again, out numbered. In other words, the flesh can be killed off (Colossians 3:5) so that the sin within us doesn't reign. Just sayin!
  5. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    That's not to say we can't sin, just we have the ability not to.
  6. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    The problem with that is that we've got too many verses of Scripture in context that tells us that we will always be tempted and again I point you to Paul as the prime example of this. When was the last time you read the entire book of Romans? Or even the entirety of Romans chapter 7?

    No disrespect, snark or sarcasm intended brother. It's a serious question.

    Yes, we have the ability to resist, overcome and not sin! We agree on that. It's usually a willful choice. But not all sin is a willful choice is it? Some happens in a fit of anger or despair or when we aren't paying attention and slip up.

  7. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Paul never said it's not possible. And yep, read Romans 7 more times than I can remember. The summation was that he thanked God through Jesus Christ that he was delivered from that body of sin. And then many other times where Paul told us to kill off the flesh so sin doesn't reign in us. 1 Cor. 5 is a good example.

    1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

    Why in heavens name would the Apostle tell us to sin not if it were impossible. And what do you think it means him telling us "I die daily"?
  8. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Yep. He also said he beat his body into submission and did so with all of the drive and passion of an athlete preparing for something like the Olympics I presume.

    “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

    Again, I agree with you completely that we have the ability to resist sin because of being born again and renewed and because we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. There is no excuse for sin ever. Ever. As Christians we should come to hate it just as much as God does and desire to be obedient because of our love for Him who loved us first.

    Paul also said “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,”

    So how do we reconcile this especially in context of the Epistles and the rest of Romans? Just as we've both said. We do have the ability to resist - however - I see Scripture saying that the temptation will always be there and we battle with our flesh and our own minds

    “Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct.”

    Why would we battle and have to renew ourselves daily if this "sin nature" was eradicated from us?
  9. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    OK, now you're making it clearer... Trying to confuse an old man I see! :) That "sin nature" doesn't leave us until the flesh passes. And oh so true, that temptation is always with us. That's well said.
  10. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Yeah I was thinking along these lines after someone, I forget who, asked if sin would still exist after death. ( Or something close to that )
    At the time I said I don't know good question, but now I can say firmly no. He will return and call us up. We will rise and be changed and our sanctification will be complete. No more sorrow and tears but instead joy and the singing of His praises day and night!

    We shall be changed and given our heavenly bodies and be free of the shackles of this flesh right? Right.
  11. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Did sin exist before flesh?
  12. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    In all his years at TEDS, Wayne Grudem must have never met anyone like you....

    No matter what their differences on the details, all Christians who take the Bible as their final authority agree that the final and ultimate result of Christ’s return will be the judgment of unbelievers and the final reward of believers, and that believers will live with Christ in a new heaven and a new earth for all eternity. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will reign and will be worshiped in a never-ending kingdom with no more sin or sorrow or suffering.
  13. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    And he's probably grateful for that!
    TrustGzus likes this.
  14. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Here's how I see it:

    God is evidently some form of "We". Trinity ... Father ... Son ... Spirit ... however you want to define that, and hopefully not divide the One God into 3 people or separate beings or entities, or whatever your little human brain compels you to do because we've not been given the insight to actually understand any of it (although we do try).

    "We" (whatever it actually is) evidently seeks and enjoys community.

    We know this for a fact, because "We" has created beings to commune with. Ourselves, angels, and whatever else exists out there in the universe that we don't know anything about.

    The "sin nature" ... or "flesh" ... or "ego" ... or "fallen state" ... whatever you choose to call that thing we do in fact struggle with and that does create problems ... ultimately resists community. It wants its own way, wants to play by its own rules, can't see beyond the tip of its own nose, me me me, mine, mine, mine.

    In Acts we see the Church as a group of people who originally shared everything and "had all things in common", who freely gave to one another and made sure everyone's needs were met at all times, and nobody lacked anything. They did this without a central governing flesh-and-blood body (even though they had the Apostles, although they were actual servants and equals), that was controlled by this unseen "We" and got to enjoy harmony and unity, for at least a good 5 minutes that we can see in Acts, before trouble starts and that anti-community thing rears its ugly head again.

    So then, holiness in my mind has everything to do with working together with "We" to build the community "We" seeks.

    Whereas sin has everything to do with working contrary to "We" to resist (if not actively sabotage and even destroy) the community "We" seeks.

    Christianity isn't about "me and Jesus living happily ever after". At all. That's a very individualized western view of the whole thing, and the people who try to make it about only themselves and Jesus are missing the entire point and are the ones struggling the most to become "good Christians" (from what I've seen anyway).

    Christianity is about "us" and "We". Together. All of us.

    Kind of like the Borg but with a tad more freedom for individualistic expression and a tad less technological brain implants.

    Resistance is futile. Live long and prosper. Nanoo nanoo.
  15. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I don't think you intended this, but this sentence sounds very Platonic.
  16. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Much of the discussions about sin are so homocentric that you would think Man was the only thing in the universe.

    Contrary to the pop evangelism of the day and the past decades, Jesus did not "die just for me."

    Jesus died to take care of an issue that predated Adam and Even's transgression in the Garden. Man wasn't the target audience.

    The resurrection, however, was all about man.
  17. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    I'm not sure how but thank you for pointing that out. I only meant it in the sense of being free of the temptations, aches, pains. sorrow and things our flesh is currently shackled to. Hope that clarifies.
  18. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Would you be kind enough to expand upon this a bit please? It went just a bit over my head I think and I'd like to read more.
  19. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    He does that on purpose, you know.

  20. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Original sin was not Adam or Eve, but Satan.

    Jesus dying was to resolve the sin offense against God, once and for all. If Jesus had died and not resurrected, that my screw with our concept of the Trinity, but resurrection wasn't required to satisfy God's wrath for sin.

    The target audience of Jesus' death was Satan, not man.

    God, however, being ever so much more clever than Satan, took care of two birds with one cross, so to speak.

    He satisfied the sin issue and at the same time, opened the door for a restored relationship with the creation that Satan had led astray and ruined and in the process, brought Jesus back to life and provided a means for our eternal resurrection and fellowship with God.

    God is quite clever.

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