Mark of the Beast

Discussion in 'Eschatology' started by The Parson, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Well, in the books of Matthew and Luke, the “unforgivable sin” that Jesus referred to was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Because the Pharisees insulted and resisted the Holy Spirit to such a degree that they slandered the Holy Spirit and said that Jesus being able to perform miracles came from the power of Satan, not God. We can speculate why this particular sin is “unforgivable.” But, it isn’t hard to come to a reasonable conclusion. Somebody that KNOWS Jesus is of divine origin (The Pharisee Nicodemus bluntly admitted that his fellow Pharisees knew this to Jesus privately) and has the audacity to say He’s a servant of the Devil must be so repugnant to God. They basically spit in God’s face. So, I’m not sure whether this taking of the mark falls in the same category of “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” or not, especially since the mark is taken out of ignorance (in the sense that people taking it don’t know it’s a mark ultimately demonstrating allegiance to Satan), whereas the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (at least in the manner the Pharisees did it) was done with full knowledge...
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  2. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Found this BBC article, supports what you said. What to think about 1 Peter 2:17?

    17 - Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. [ESV]
    17 - Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. [KJV]
    17 - Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor. [NIV]

    Honor the emperor taking the mark?
     
  3. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I’m going out on a limb here, but I think the command to “honor the emperor” or “honor the king” merely means treating them with respect. Accepting that they rule over you. Not constantly rebelling against their authority. Doing what they require of you...as long as it doesn’t mean you have to sin against God in the process. Honoring the emperor, in of itself, is not sin. We are also commanded elsewhere in scripture to obey the governing authorities over us (Romans 13).
     
  4. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Shall we honor Kim Jong-un? Kind of Nero in our time.
     
  5. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    That's a good question. As I recall Judaism during the before and during the early church period was considered acceptable by the Romans because the Jews offered sacrifices to God on behalf of the emperor, or something like that. There was a roundabout justification for it. Because the early church was considered a sect of Judaism, it was not particularly persecuted. Not until later did the split become more apparent and the Christians were not afforded the same protections anymore.

    As for honoring the emperor, I guess I'd agree with Aaron. I'm not sure what emperor was on the throne at the time of Peter's letter or whether that matters. I do recall from the same source I got the other stuff from was that the Christians, though often misunderstood and persecuted, still paid their taxes to the emperor and rarely went out of their way to flout any of the rules.
     
    Cloudwalker likes this.
  6. markedward

    markedward New Member

    In the narrative context of Mark 3.22-30, the sin that will never be forgiven is a very specific act: attributing an undeniable miracle from God to demons. It isn't a general, lifelong 'rejection' of God, as is commonly thought.

    I have an in-depth explanation here on the mark of the beast as Nero's name, if you are interested.
     
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  7. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    I concur with markedward

    His analysis is excellent.

    The 7!churches knew exactly who the bad guy was and what to do
     
  8. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I don’t live in North Korea. So, no, I’m not obligated to “honor” him. He does NOT have any authority over me.
     
  9. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Obeying a tyrant honoring a tyrant. It's odd word choice by Peter. His country was occupied by the Roman Empire, they crucified his Lord and in Acts 2:13 he speaks not so honorable about the Roman Empire. [ this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. ]

    When the Nazi's occupied my country, does 1 Peter 2:17 mean the Christian Dutch had to participate in the "Heil Hitler" honoring?
     
  10. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    I understand you don't want to discuss.
     
  11. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Insightful.
     
  12. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Checking out the infallible Wikipedia, Nero was emperor from 54-68. That certainly would cover the time Peter wrote.
     
  13. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I am discussing. I’m saying that since I’m not a citizen of North Korea, Kim Jong-un is NOT my “emperor” or “king.” Since he is NOT my “emperor” or “king,” I’m not obligated to “honor” or “obey” him.
     
  14. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Peter - Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. [ESV]
    You - I’m not a citizen of ancient Rome, Nero is NOT my “emperor” or “king.” Since he is NOT my “emperor” or “king,” I’m not obligated to “honor” or “obey” him.

    How is that discussing?
     
  15. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    LOL
     
  16. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I was looking into the use of 'lawless men' and it may simply refer to the Gentiles, those without the Law of Moses. So it may not have been intended how we might read that. Bonhoeffer would probably be a good place to consider the question of the Nazi occupation.
     
  17. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    Or maybe we could ask these guys, 4 of whom were pastors or full time ministers, a plethora of whom were elders, most of whom were regular attenders and communicants....

    Traitors and treasonous, one and all...

    Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
    Declaration of Independence

    Religious Affiliation # of
    signers
    % of
    signers

    Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
    Congregationalist 13 23.2%
    Presbyterian 12 21.4%
    Quaker 2 3.6%
    Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
    Catholic 1 1.8%
    TOTAL 56 100%


    Name of Signer
    State Religious Affiliation
    Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
    Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
    Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
    William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
    Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
    Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
    Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
    John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
    Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
    William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
    William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
    John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
    Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
    George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
    John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
    George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
    Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
    Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
    Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
    Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
    Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
    Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
    George Read Delaware Episcopalian
    Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
    Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
    William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
    Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
    Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
    Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
    Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
    Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
    William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
    Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
    John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
    Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
    Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
    Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
    Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
    George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
    Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
    Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
    Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
    James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
    Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
    George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
    Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
    Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
    Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
    John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
    Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
    John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
    William Floyd New York Presbyterian
    Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
    James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
    George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
    Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
     
  18. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    As an individual, yes, I can “honor” Kim Jong-un and treat him with respect (even though I personally dislike him), but, if he told me to do something, while in MY country, trying to use authority over me, then, no, I’m not obligated to obey him. The President of the United States is my “emperor.” The dictator of North Korea is NOT. Now, while in HIS country, I AM obligated to obey him. He “rules” over me there. Not here, though. Does that clear it up?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  19. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Honor =/= obedience.

    The early Christians prayed for Nero's blessing, but you can be sure they didn't give each other up when Nero asked where they were hiding.
     
  20. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL. Staff Member

    Actually, the "emperor" of the United States is not the President. He is a servant.
    The "governing authority" in the United States is the people, not the elected officials.
     

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