Christianity: Religion vs socio-political movement

Define "God". Also, how and where does "God" exist, and has "God" always existed?

(And yes I agree, but for the sake of not needing to write a book series of several volumes, I can't delve into a lot of nuances in a forum environment, as you know.)

The reality of life is that evil is real, bad things happen to good people, and if hell exists, it does so at least on this planet, as we can objectively and observably prove the pain and suffering that has historically been our companion.

I personally find that either agnosticism or Christianity offer the best explanation of the way things are/have been, and why they are/have been that way (although they "why" is disputed even within followers of the Christian religion).

This is all based on observable reality. I've also had plenty of personal experiences that have me absolutely convinced that there is a spiritual component to our existence here. Which is why I've yet to convert from Christianity to any other religion or spiritual framework.

When it comes to the discussion of the validity of religious beliefs, the challenge is often "you can't prove that God exists". I'm aware. You can't prove that God doesn't exist, either. Which leaves us at an impasse where we are left to our own judgment. Which is fine. Evidently, subjective experience will cause a person to lean one way or the other in a situation where the scientific method or some other sort of objective approach proves inconclusive. That's the reality of it, even though people still love to argue that their conviction is the right one that universally applies to everyone everywhere.

 

22-1/2 years ago I was a deeply conflicted, immature Christian wrestling with a lot of things but hanging very firmly to certain absolutes that I had been taught were absolutely true. I stumbled upon the path of a kind of repentance that has led to some interesting experiences, which I cannot explain any other way than stating that there's definitely a spiritual component to our existence here. Either that, or I'm a completely delusional whackadoo ... take your pick lol.

I think it's quite normal for us to have more questions than answers, the older we get and the more we sit down and really think about things and give ourselves permission to question whatever we want to. Why wouldn't we? I'm not going to take your word for something just because you said so, simply because you published a book (or a few books) or you have a microphone and stand behind a pulpit in a church, or on a stage out there somewhere preaching/teaching/whatever. I'm not going to accept you as any sort of authority just because you tell me I should, because "God" or whatever.

I also find that uncertainty is as liberating and humbling as it is unsettling. My life is richer because of it, even though it's also more challenging for sure. Faith, hope and love are (supposedly) the triangular framework of our religious experience, and we cannot willy-nilly replace hope with our own sense of absolute certainty, even though we do try because it makes us feel better.

 

#solidarity

 

If it's about salvation, then salvation is, in effect, everything, and the great commission consumes all priorities.
The antagonist is the widely embraced phenomenon of unbelief, which cannot be remedied by means other than the untainted, ungarnished Word.
The professing body loses the advantage of separation by becoming assimilated into socio-political institutions.
Much good is accomplished, as pointed out, but in a temporal sense. The mission invariably becomes the message - salvation becomes rescue from earthly circumstances.

 

So why are you here? On Earth I mean.

As for me, I am the result of a one night stand, never met my biological father. So why I am here? Nobody asked me if I wanted to be born. But I am here, nothing I could do. One feet in heaven, the other in hell. what's it gonna be boy? And I have to figure it out. All by myself. It's like thrown into the deep without learning to swim. Why is that? Why does every newborn into this world starts from that uncomfortable position as if you are behind in score with 0-10? And you have to grow up first before you realize the 0-10 situation (you had no say over) that you are in. And how is that liberating? That's just one of my questions.

You once said to me, something is missing, and I agree, this (for me) is one of them. Another one, Scripture states we are sinners and miss the glory of God and points to Adam as the guilty one. I am a sinner because Adam became one. Why did I (or you) did not get the same Eden experience, don't eat and live? Why not? That's question number 2. Is God unjust? By no means, but what kept Him? Why only A&E?

In the meantime I found satisfying answers, can't prove them because they are heretic in the sense they deny the historical A&E but so do (most) believers in evolution.

 

I don't mean uncertainty of belief in God; I mean uncertainty about where we're all going to end up and how it's all going to pan out.

I have no clue how things are in Europe, but here the US the "gospel" has by-and-large (sadly) been reduced to "believe in Jesus and you go to heaven and not hell". They sell it to you like a sort of "fire insurance". And paint the future for you like it's set in stone and they know exactly how it's going to be. This is not a marginalized viewpoint but a mainstream one.

This sort of belief system removes all need for hope then, doesn't it?

I'm ok not knowing for sure, but yet hoping nonetheless. That's what I mean by "liberating" because it allows me to step away from needing to have all the answers for everyone's future and future state. Which in turn allows me to focus on the God who is present with us now and live from that place of presence daily, instead of focusing on Christianity needing to be a religion for soon-to-be-dead people who are just barely hanging on until the hereafter. There's extremely popular songs about this very thing here, and if I had a dollar for every time I hear "we're just passing through, this is not our home, I'm going to heaven forever", I'd be a millionaire. I'm not kidding. This is what people actually believe, based on "Bible" (not sure which Bible, because mine talks about a physical resurrection on earth). This is what I've heard for years in the evangelical churches I've attended, and on radio stations and on TV stations and streaming websites and Bible studies and so on.

God did not create me to die and go to heaven. That's absurd. Why even put any of us here if that's the case? Just put me in some spiritual place in a disembodied state to begin with, and be done with it. But yet, that's what the "gospel" is so often being presented as, which disempowers people from getting a grip on the here-and-now, and also creates all sorts of useless arguments about who is going to be "in" and who is going to be "out".

 

I'm not interested in persuading you to a position, but connecting you with a Jesus who is alive and who can actually respond to you in a way that you can understand/receive.
If Christianity isn't a supernatural/metaphysical experience with an actual divine Being in the here-and-now, then what is it?

 

I states yes earlier and then you said I didn't answer your question, so ... ????

I honestly have no clue "where" I'm going after I die. I do hope in a physical resurrection from the dead, of course. Where and how I will spend the time of my passing to the time of my resurrection? I have no idea. Neither does anyone, because nobody has managed to die and come back to report. Except Jesus, and He placed a heavy emphasis on a physical resurrection, He was reportedly physically resurrected after being dead for 3 days, and then spent a little time here in His resurrected body, only to leave again (and we do believe He is going to return in His resurrected form to resurrect us also, and then we along with Him will be in this resurrected state forever).

Paul hinted that he was somehow "translated" into a metaphysical realm "beyond" our limited human physical experience, where he heard and saw things he was either not given permission to share, or lacked the words to share. We also know that Paul was left near dead (or believed to actually have died briefly) at least once, so the assumption is that this is when the translational experience happened.

Obviously you and I both believe that God alone determines what happens to people after we die physically.

Many believe that we continue in a conscious state (disembodied in some sort of metaphysical realm) until a physical resurrection, while many others believe we "fall asleep" and continue in some form of unconscious state, in the interim. In the evangelical environment I've also (sadly) seen the physical resurrection be completely ignored in favor of "we die and go to heaven forever" (as disembodied spirits/souls, I guess).

I do see in the Bible where the "falling asleep until physically resurrected" was the preeminent belief of the early Christians. The concept of the immortality of the soul is a Greek belief, and early Christian authors (Augustine and others) for some reason went with Plato, which is where we get the idea that the soul/spirit separates from the body after physical death, and continues on into some state of glory/bliss or into some state of torment forever.

There are/were different beliefs within Judaism around the time of the first century, that also got mixed in with Hellenistic beliefs that revolve around people living in some sort of disembodied shadowy forms in "Sheol" or "Hades". Sheol was a place where all dead went and continued as mere "shades" of themselves while awaiting a physical resurrection. We see this in all of the Old Testament. On the other hand, writers like Josephus also describe a belief in a judgment immediately after a person's death, and then being sent to either a place designed for righteous people, or a place designed for wicked people, and staying there forever.

I don't see in the Bible any clear and firm statements that expound on any sort of afterlife existence immediately after physical death, except hints here and there, and visions that can be interpreted in different ways (such as experienced by John which he wrote down in what we now know as the "Book of Revelation"). I definitely do see in the Bible a firmly held hope in a physical resurrection from the dead by the early Church, but not a lot of discussion about what happens to us in the interim (maybe we go to Sheol, maybe we remain unconscious ... who knows?).

Note that Paul didn't teach any form of "corpse revival" where we are simply united with some sort of "reanimated body", but a transformative resurrection where the resurrected person, including their body, is completely different from the person who died. So different in fact, that Jesus' own disciples didn't even recognize Him until He "revealed Himself" to them (on the road to Emmaus) in a form that they actually recognized. God isn't going to raise us again from the dust with our previous materials that make up our bodies now, but clothe us with a new body that cannot decompose again, a spiritual body that's somehow also a physical body (no idea how that even works, but that's the kind of body Jesus got and still has and always will have).

So to me as a Christian who affirms the resurrection from the dead, the question isn't "what happens after death?" but "what happens after the resurrection?". Will God raise all of us into a glorified state? Will He raise all of us, but some into a glorified and unified state, and others into an eternally non-glorified and separated state? Or will He raise some of us into a glorified state, and not raise the rest of us at all?