They don't lose it, they give it up in full knowledge of who Jesus is. We want to conceive of a relationship with Jesus, but then balk at the idea that it doesn't work for some reason who pursue it. Think about it: if you were convinced that Jesus is the Christ, and enjoyed a relationship with him, but then later in life spent 60 years in excruciating pain, how do you think your relationship with Jesus would be at the end? Bitter, probably -- if you're lucky. You would be angry, and have doubts - why me! - and you'd lose faith not that God can act, but that God will act. It's not too far from there to "we're done". But Jesus is so amazing, of course, that no such thing has, can, or ever will happen, right?
The decision to follow Christ is voluntary, and I can't honestly say that if someone was to torture me for my faith to the point of impending death, that I would hold on to my confession. Everyone has their limits, and not everyone has it in them to be a martyr. I've been tempted to quit for lesser reasons. I understand that it can be a struggle, despite our best efforts. I can't imagine that God would hold being human and weak against anyone. Being a martyr for your faith requires a special grace, in my opinion, that unless God imparts it to the person, they're not going to just have. Jesus Himself gave reasons why people quit (parable of the sower), and He wasn't being condemnatory about it at all, but factual because reality is what it is and people are who and what they are.
There seems to be many who base their hope on a certain commitment to follow, and those who are at rest in the new birth.
OK, I'm not buying the free will/no free will thingy RK. I made a decision to give myself to the Lord for the price he paid for me. Same as Paul, I'm persuaded: 2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. And no, don't even come at me with a "did God brain wash you" question please... So then the verse: 1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. makes more than perfect sense to me. And I don't for one minute believe that once my soul is purchased, would I ever want to leave His protection. Even under torture Dani. That just isn't in the mind of my soul (the inner man). Nor would I ever "want" to break the Holy seal on me. Someone who's really saved wouldn't ever consider it. I believe that with all my heart. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Notice I took an hour or two or three to answer you here. I really want to keep an open mind about what's being said.
I understand. I just don't believe that God gives idle warning of hypothetical outcomes that cannot occur just to scare His children into good behavior. I also don't believe that if I make one decision, that means that I lose the ability to make contrary decisions in the future. I think faith is always in the present tense.
It's always the present tense. Amen to that. Maybe not the way you meant it... Faith is the thing that gives us the ability to trust God, because to the inner man, it's a done deal, but to the flesh, it's the hope that should drive his or her belief and behavior. But many people believe that it's faith that saves you. It isn't. It's Grace through faith. Not the other way around. Loss of faith by the flesh afterwards could never cancel out or negate God's grace sir. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It's interesting that the early church struggled with what to do with the so-called lapsarians, those who would agree to offer the incense to Caesar.
Your referring to?: Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. All that set of verses tell us is that those who believe you can loose their salvation can't be saved again and again and again. It's impossible. It's a one time deal. Then again, Paul later said he was persuaded that couldn't happen. 2 Timothy 1:12 Care to go a bit deeper with that statement please?
No question about the one time deal. But where is the "those who believe you can lose their salvation" part? The warning is not to "those who believe they can lose their salvation," but is, to the contrary, directly addressed to "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come." That's me, and you, and everyone else who has ever been re-born and baptised by the Holy Spirit into Christ.
But to the contrary, it would be like you telling a colleague that it's totally impossible to re-try a case (if you were the prosecutor) where the defendant has already been found not guilty of the charges. It would be "double jeopardy". I hope that's a good example. Think about it.
It isn't double jeopardy. It isn't about trial and punishment. The penalty for sin is already paid. Sinners don't pay for their sins. Jesus already did that. It's about rejecting a relationship.
I believe the good Rabbi already mentioned the scripture. Hebrews chapter 6. This is a person that was enlightened at one point and decided to walk away. aka the "divorce" analogy. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Specifically the BOLD part. You can't be brought back to something you didn't have.
During the early church, it was required for all people to offer a sacrrifice to the 'genius' of Caesar. This often was simply a matter of burning some incense or splashing some wine. Christians of course would not do this and this brought them to conflict with Rome. Failure to present the sacrifice may have meant torture or death. Presented with this reality many Christians did give in and offer the sacrifice (and I can understand that given the consequences), but for those that refused and suffered for it felt that those that recanted and later wished to rejoin the church felt they should not be welcomed back. Those that recanted were call lapsarians (i.e. lapsed in their faith). Anyway, the church struggled with what to do with these people. I am not even sure what happened - I suspect it varied from place to place.
It would be about trial and punishment if it were possible for it to happen. The only ones who face punishment are those who weren't washed in the blood. I'll quote the following so it's clearer where I stand. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. That which is born of God is our soul, not our flesh. So it doesn't sin even when the flesh is out of control. That which is spirit is spirit, that which is flesh is flesh. If the flesh gets so out of control that he or she is bringing shame on the name of God, the Lord will take them outta here. Hence verse 16 of 1 John. 1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. The sin unto death...
I'm sure it wasn't the same exact charges Seeking. Double jeopardy isn't allowed in our justice system.