I know. I don't blow anyone off either, or try not to anyway. I'm not a flippant person when it comes to sacred things, and if I come across that way then I apologize. I know everyone here takes faith and God and Scripture seriously and is an avid student and does their absolute best to honor Christ in their daily life. I really am glad that you joined us although it's been a while and I reckon we need to get used to each other again. I used to hold certain beliefs and understandings, and now I don't. That's not affected my connection with God in any way whatsoever. I used to be so sure. Now I'm not. I've chosen to trade in assurance (the flaky task mistress that it has been) for hope instead. Which has been quite marvelous because now I'm being carried, rather than trying so hard to assure my own safekeeping. Every day I go to God poor, and every day I ask for grace. I've learned to not be afraid of my own doubts, but let them drive me to God and find my safekeeping in Him directly, not in anything written or said about Him. Not even the Bible. So, when I see people being so sure ... I think to myself "self, give them grace, because their day will come just like yours did". We all have our own journey, and who am I to judge yours? My creed is Solo Christo. That's it. Jesus alone, plus nothing, minus nothing. Because from Him, through Him and by Him are all things, including faith itself. Everything He does is to the glory of the Father. He is Grace personified. He is the Word of God. No other "solas" are needed, because Christ personifies all of them already. The way I see it. I find the Bible helpful and fascinating, and it's a wonderful work that certainly contains God-breathed passages, but I'm not a Sola Scriptura kind of person at all. I draw from all kinds of creeds and denominations and people and stories and writings, and so it may seem like I'm lax or even heretical when it comes to certain things about the Bible or some of my beliefs. God killed all my sacred cows over the years, and He was very deliberate about it. Until nothing but Christ remained. Having your sacred beliefs killed is a terrifying thing. Because once they're gone, then what? What am I going to hold on to now? Nothing. It's not about me holding on. It's about me being held. Because the Eternal God is my Refuge, and underneath are the Everlasting Arms. So ... when you attack my Jesus, I'ma throat punch you (not literally but ... yanno ). Because He's all I've got. And, He's enough.
Creating is a unique ability possessed by God. I see no reason to think angels could create unless the text said they did. I wouldn't look for a text saying they can't and assume they could. I haven't found a text saying cows can't jump over the moon. Therefore, they can?
No, not "create." Interact with. Manipulate. I believe God alone created matter. Just like humans that can't create matter but can interact with it and manipulate it, I believe angels, being very intelligent, know how to manipulate existing matter (that God created) even more advanced than we do and use it to do either good things or wicked things with it. When God sent holy angels to the earth to interact with people they had bodies that looked like people. I believe the fallen angels, who became demons, had the same ability to form bodies. To then have unnatural relations with women. But they don't have that ability now, which is why they're desperate to possess humans. They like having physical bodies to occupy.
The key word there is looked human, i.e., the appearance but not the substance of. Look back to Genesis 3.26, 'To Seth also a son was born, and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to invoke the name of the Lord.', and now to Genesis 6.1-2, 'When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose.' What separates these two chapters is a genealogy, so if you put Genesis 5 to the side, you end up with this: To Seth also a son was born, and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to invoke the name of the Lord. When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. It's a single thought, where the 'sons of God' are those who 'began to invoke the name of the Lord', and in their wickedness, turned from the Lord. The sinfulness of humanity offends the Lord, but why isn't the same said of the sons of God if they're angelic? Where is the accompanying angelic judgment -- that we don't read about? Consider: - Angels are spiritual beings that reside in heaven - Humans are spirit/flesh composites that reside on earth - Humans are one genus, and angels another (if it's even proper to think of them in that way). Both species is alien to the other. If angels were to suddenly appear in the sky, they would be aliens -- they are not from earth - Procreation requires compatible genetic information, i.e. XX or XY chromosomes, and a delivery / recovery mechanism - Human beings are made in the image of God - Human males are sexually attracted to human women because God made us this way, but why would angels find human women sexually attractive? Angels would not just be giving up their 'proper dwelling in heaven' if they procreated with human women, but would need to become actually human. There is no room for angelic-human hybrids, as if the physical world is a toy the spiritual world gets to play with at will. If angels became human, they are not turning back into angels (unless you know of humans with this ability, because I don't), and they are not procreating women with 'corrupted seed' to mess with the human genome (as some people suggest) because they would have normal, human seed. Those angels would be become normal, every day, pedestrian, drown-in-a-flood humans. Think of it by way of analogy: would you accept that a man can actually become a woman through surgery and hormones? You don't, so why do you think that a sexless, agender, heavenly species can actually become sexed, gendered, earthly humans? What does that say about our being created in the image of God, if angels can willy-nilly assume humanity?
If demons could create actual bodies, then why would they need to posses anyone (why wouldn't they have that ability? Scripture doesn't say that angels were un-created in any way when they fell).
Indeed. But I've always been a "push the envelope to see what will happen" kind of person. I reckon that's how God created me and He knows how to handle it. So even when I push, I look at my Daddy and go "You got me, right?". And He always does. I think everyone has their own dance with God, and He knows how to lead.
Dani, I read your posts for years on BF and I've always loved the way your mind words. While I'm incredibly surprised at what I'm reading from you now that hasn't changed. Please beleive me I've no problems with people questioning, seeking and having doubts because I not only have my own small doubts at times I am strongly convicted that if our faith, theology and doctrine can't stand up to some serious questioning we who are questioned need to examine why it can't stand up to it. I'm Christ centered as well and like you I have also studied more than just the Bible ranging from world religions, cults, the history of the church and Biblical times manners and customs. Throw in psychology, literature, world history etc into the mix and I've got a big mish mash of things running through my head. Maybe way more than is good for me. Thank God I stayed as far away from philosophy as I could get ( no offense meant ) though I couldn't escape reading books by certain people because of the way they influenced the church and Christian thinking. Meh. I wrote all of that just to say that I understand where you're coming from. The difference is that this has helped to confirm my faith in God first and Protestant theology and doctrine. It's also confirmed that even with all of my studying and whatnot I'm still a blithering idiot when it comes to applying Christ and love first and foremost in my life in a way that I'm living it every day all day. It is Christ alone that sustains me for he is my hope, He is my righteousness and the only good that I see and do is what He shows me and does through me. If my Bibles and all other books etc etc were taken away I would still have Him and feel no lack whatsoever because if I have Christ and He me than I have everything. You'll never have to apologize for sharing your thoughts and opinions to me sister. For one thing I've got skin as thick as steel walls and for another I know for a fact that I'm not even close to having "it all figured out." Yes, I am sure. But I've been shown error and edified far too many times in the past to think that I still don't have a whole lot to learn.
I believe they don't have the ability to create bodies anymore, which is why they want to possess people. I believe God has restricted them from continuing to make bodies after the mess they caused by impregnating women and making the mutant Nephilim, whom God destroyed in the Flood. Maybe they'll face some severe penalty if they try? The Bible doesn't tell us EVERYTHING there is to know about angels. The Bible also doesn't say angels WEREN'T "uncreated" when they fell.
Get called away for a short time and wow, how this thread has evolved. So, what scripture and verse on where fallen angels can't appear in bodies please!
Sorry bro. You did see where I wrote "though I couldn't escape reading books by certain people because of the way they influenced the church and Christian thinking." right? I don't think that all philosophy is bad because it isn't. But I purposely stayed away from that which is centered upon and wholly concerned with human tradition and the basic principles of this world and completely ignore God or attempts to prove that He doesn't exist or is needed. That we are, in essence, each our own god. I learned enough about THAT in my psychology classes thank you very much. And that's because Paul said in Colossians 2: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
I grew up Catholic and Protestant in Germany. I don't know if you can get more "authentically Protestant" than singing Luther hymns in German in Germany, and reading a Luther Bible in German (which was my first Bible ever, and I still have it and cherish it). My roots are deep in Protestantism, and I've been voraciously studying German theologians in the past couple of years, which is kind of a "full circle" thing for me personally. I graduated from an all-girl Catholic high school where I minored in Religion which has always been a passion of mine. I spent most of my childhood and young adulthood in church in one way, shape or form. When I left Germany, Baptists had just begun to gain a foothold, as had Charismatics (who were viewed by everyone with suspicion, because what??). I walked away from churchy things for several years and dipped my toes into Buddhism and New Age (which I couldn't stomach because it was just too "out there"). I almost became a Jehovah's Witness after I came to America because I was searching hard for spiritual meaning and that connection with God which I had as a child and that somehow went away, and those people sounded like they had some answers for me. Because "Jesus" and the "Bible". Except on the day they actually came to my front door (which I had invited them to do), I dove into my bedroom and locked the door and hid out until they left. True story. I came to Christ in 1992 and immediately started attending a Pentecostal church. Which I loved. Because those people actually danced and shouted and clapped and enjoyed their worship experience, and didn't just stand there awkwardly singing Luther hymns from a book. What?? I thought my church was the bee's knees, until I went to the other side of the country and got prodded by God to attend a Baptist church (which was full of the kindest people I have ever met), and had to repent in front of them for being such a denominational snob. I got tangled up in the whole TBN mess because other than my country bumpkin church that's all I had access to, and with my German background, I thought everything "Jesus" and "Bible" was legit. I was very naive about the reality of false Christs and false teachers and false religion, and I can honestly say that navigating the church-scape of the US of A has been a dodge-and-weave experience of "will the real Jesus please stand up?" False teachings and teachers are, literally, everywhere. False religion abounds. And it's in churches that look pretty legit from the outside and in "ministries" that are full of "Bible teachings". So you'll have to excuse me when I'm a tad suspicious of Bible teachers, because I've seen the spiritual abuse that happens in the "name of the Lord" and in the "name of the Bible." My local church which my husband and I have attended for well over a decade is a former Baptist church, and my pastor knows how to Bible with the best of them. So there's that. I love my church and can't fathom attending anyplace else. As for BF ... the lead administrator (if it's still who it was when we were there -- dunno, haven't checked lately) is a cult leader who uses "Jesus" and the "Bible" to commit spiritual abuse and spread a false religion, in Kansas at the institution he's a leader of, and via their "crusades". That's verifiable. I have zero compunction stating that in writing, publicly. My former pastor, who was a very devoted, sincere and kind believer, died in a motorcycle accident while serving there at that place in Kansas with those people. I was there when he thought "God" called his family away from our area and my previous church, and to that place. It all sounded and seemed so wonderful ... until I got my eyes opened by what happened at BF. Hard. I now fear for his family, especially his wife who is still there in that mess, and I ask God to protect and keep her whenever I think of her. It's true. You can be as sincere and devoted and studious as you like, and still be taken. That's why the Apostles gave such strong warnings about the wolves that would come from within. That's why Jesus gave such strong warnings about false Christs that would come "in His name". So you can be surprised at what I write here -- but really I just have way more freedom here to express what I really feel and think than we ever did at BF and than I have at my church --- so I take advantage of it, just to bounce some things off and see what sticks and where I need to reconsider some things. I may skirt around the edge of inside with some of my views at times, but my roots go deep and my Anchor is certain. I would have zero problems tossing everything out and stand there with my Luther Bible and nothing else and be just dandy. I understand all about the mish mash running around in your head; I've certainly got my own. I've seen enough of the false, fake and bizarre to understand how damaging it is. I understand how this damage can come packaged in the name of "Jesus" and "Bible" and pillage and plunder people who are too innocent to suspect otherwise. And sometimes we have to suffer and endure pain in order to wisen up, learn and grow. So anyway, there you go. Maybe this helps explain some things. If you see me truly spouting off nonsense, feel free to call me on it. I'm 100% fine with that. I try very hard to not dance with error because I fully know what it's like to be burned, and it's not pleasant and takes a while to recover from. I've learned a lot from people who called me on some things and also from those who presented a dissenting view. I welcome and embrace it. None of us are ever above error, or above correction. That's why God put us in a body. To serve as our guard rails so we don't bowl gutter balls and/or go off the deep end. I do think I have enough guard rails in place to yank me back to where I need to be when I get a wild hair up my butt and feel the urge to go bungee diving into the unknown.
Hey Brian, I did read your whole post. It's not for everyone. I'm of the school of Geisler and Sproul. Both have, in commenting on Colossians 2:8, said you can't beware of philosophy if you are not aware of philosophy. Speaking for myself, it's been valuable.
In context it sounds like you're saying you tried to get as far away from philosophy as you could, even though you were forced to read books by certain people because of their influence, i.e., you would have gotten as far away from them as well, if you hadn't been forced to read them. If so, then I'm not sure how that addresses TrustGzus' comment? That's too bad. I've learned a heck of a lot from 'worldly' philosophy and psychology. Colossians 2.8 was one of the impetus' to do so, lest I be persuaded by empty philosophy If my beliefs are true, then my faith can withstand whatever is thrown at it; if they're false, then exposing them to the strongest challenge possible will let me know that they are. So far nothing has been more compelling than Jesus, and for my trouble I understand those around me better. Win-win for me ('for me' being the key words here).
I wasn't forced to read them by anyone or anything else I chose to read them myself. In my quest to study our Christian history and it's theology and doctrines I couldn't very well ignore those who had such big impacts on them now could I? Kudo's for you and everyone else who love it. I have to force myself to read though and study any parts of it myself. Good for you. I mean that seriously and not facetiously in any way. See the bolded part of your reply...I said basically the exact same thing myself in an earlier post.
Before he went sideways, I played sax (in a visiting capacity) at his church on a number of occasions. Marvelous preacher (event though he is/was Pentecostal and I'm not) until his brain rotted. And we went sideways veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery quickly. In a matter of months.
He is still lead admin. I've been told quite a bit about IHOP ( and people can certainly tell some horror stories about most any place can't they? I guess it depends on who you talk to eh? ) and I know a bit about Bickle etc ... -but I've read quite a bit of David's blog, listened to some of his online sermons and even read one of his books. I don't totally agree with him on a few things but I couldn't find anything cultlike about it. Not even close. I'm not disputing you or trying to defend him I'm just giving you my perspective sister. I wouldn't have served under him on the leadership team if I thought he was bringing any cult teaching or vision there. What he does specifically at IHOP I don't know. I really like the fact that this forum is a big departure of what BF is like as far as the "culture" goes. You do you and I'll do me and with love and respect we'll have some great conversations together. I'm sure about that if nothing else.