Faith

What's the Scriptural argument for demons being "fallen angels that rebelled"? I don't see anything to support that except some cobbled-together verses & passages taken out of context. Where satan supposedly used to be Lucifer, when really, in Isaiah and Ezekiel, God was just wagging His finger at the king of Babylon and the prince of Tyre, pronouncing judgment on them, and using some very descriptive language to get his point across.

If demons are not fallen angels that rebelled, became wicked, and have been in such a state ever since -- were demons created like that? What are they? Why are they bound to earth, and mankind, specifically?

I have no biblical argument for what I stated. I also have no biblical argument against it. I simply find it curious that demons, whatever they are, have this drive to mess with people and inhabit our bodies. Why?

Demonology is a matter of personal curiosity to me because I've been dealing with those stupid things for a couple decades now, and so these are matters I ponder on from time to time. Although at the end of the day I don't honestly care what they are or why they are since I'm too busy interceding and showing them to the door wherever I encounter them. I can't stand those things. Ugh. Horrible.

 

I've been a bit amazed reading this thread. Because we do have more than "cobbled together verses taken out of context."

One such is Revelation 12: 9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Is that taken out of context? No because both preceding and following it we see that a battle took place in heaven and that Satan and his angles lost and were cast out of heaven and sent down to earth. That Satan had rebelled against God and other angels joined him and NOW we -- Christians "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Drawing upon that and other scripture in the Bible we get a sense of where Satan and his demons came from, what they do now and what their fate will be. That's a far cry from inventing a pre-Adam race without a shred of anything except imagination and "What if?" behind it.

Satan and his demons exist and we know that from Scripture. We are also given information in Scripture as to their origins, what they do now and what their ultimate fate will be. Have we been given every scrap of information it's possible to have about them in Scripture? No. But we have have more than enough to add to our understanding of other Scripture and the Bible as a whole to give us a great foundation of understanding if not a full understanding.

And as with all Scripture and everything else connected with our Christian life a lot of it resides upon faith. Faith in Him first and foremost above all else and faith in His word and those who He/the Holy Spirit has convicted including theologians, pastors preachers and teachers of the word of God.
If we cannot trust that He is leading them then why did He put them in place? Put aside the fact that there are wolves and the blind leading the blind out there- We must have faith that God put them there for a reason.
That doesn't mean that we don't question, study and seek to gain greater understanding and draw closer to Him all of our lives.
But to just toss out things we may not like personally is...beyond my understanding.

 

Keep in mind that the word in Rev 12:9 translated as "angels" simply means "messenger" and that "satan" simply means "an adversary".

What's an angel, then? What kind of beings are they?

What. Actually. Happened????? How do you know that your understanding of what happened, actually happened??

For example, what exactly does it mean to be "hurled down"? Did St. Peter or Michael the Archangel open some literal Pearly Gates and picked up a literal dragon by the scruff of the neck and threw that thing literally to earth?

You think you know what happened, because it's so obvious what the Bible says, isn't it? ... until you have to describe it with your own words. I don't consider a copy/paste of Bible verses to be informative -- unless you can provide your own explanation of what you believe that verse means, exactly.

Also, we're strictly discussing what we believe, because none of us actually know. Because we weren't actually there, and no pictures exist nor any extra-biblical accounts to corroborate some things, and nobody has any sort of actual proof.

The verse you quoted speaks of some sort of adversary and its messengers being "cast to earth". That's all it says. And it's not very specific, honestly. For those of us who consider Revelation to be an account of the dismantling and judgment of the Roman Empire, it simply means that the Empire and its armies were judged and their power destroyed, with their religious system being dismantled that had caused widespread persecution of the believers during that time. This was the "adversary" and the "accuser" that the believers that Revelation was actually written for at the time, were actually dealing with.

It's not at all a matter of "tossing out what I don't like". It's a matter of seeing the same verses you see, and interpreting them very differently. Which then as a result leads to me viewing the whole "satan/demon" narrative that includes Lucifer and some cosmic pre-adamic battle etc. to in fact be something construed from verses taken out of context. This is how *I* see it.

Fascinating how someone can read the same thing yet see things so differently, eh?

 

One of those questions is, when was that, is it related to Luke 10:18, or is it a future event.

[*] sigh, had to edit my post again.

 

You have said that before. So enlighten me, how do they look?, what did he/she/it do?, what did he/she/it say?, had it wings?

 

Fascinating or not you either missed or ignored the part where I wrote "Drawing upon that and other scripture in the Bible we get a sense of where Satan and his demons came from, what they do now and what their fate will be. "

And no, I don't have to keep in mind that angel simply means "messenger" and that Satan simply means "an adversary" because of other Scripture in the Bible, in context, that clearly states the opposite about both.
Can an angel be a messenger? Yes. Is Satan an adversary of God? Yes. Is that all they are? Of course not and that can be said with full confidence and faith because of what I wrote above.

I could go on but instead--I understand your points but I have to say that I couldn't disagree with you more and I'll tell you why and it goes along with the last paragraph of my previous post.
We Protestants have cornerstone theology and doctrine we believe in, trust and keep that we carried over from the RCC that in turn continued with most of them since the church was first established.
It's not like a bunch of Baptists suddenly decided that the plot needed a better villain to make things more interesting. These doctrines have been around since the beginning haven't they?
And it's also not like we don't have plenty of Scripture that talks about Angels and Satan that aren't "cobbled together and taken out of context" which is basically what my reply was aimed at not the exact Scripture I quoted.

It's pretty much just like the Trinity. You get it when you read the entirety of the Bible not just bits and pieces here and there. And a whole lot of it is based upon faith. In fact, without faith- In God, in His word and in His church and it's teachers - what do we have? Upon what do we base our belief at all?
We are to be as the Bereans. I think you've went into something else entirely.

 

It's obvious that it's related but an exact time frame can't, as far as I know, be pinpointed. After Adam and Job and before Christ's ministry and work on the cross. Maybe someone else can get a little closer than I. I'm not anywhere close to being an expert on this.

 

No, not really. Many of them are based upon Jewish concepts, and as far as those go, the Bible itself tells us that Jewish scholars, the most highly learned of their times, couldn't even agree on whether or not a resurrection was possible (!!!!!). They had the Resurrection and Life right under their own noses --- and missed it.

Jewish rabbis have been in disagreement over the Tanakh and have wrestled with it and with other Scriptures (such as the Talmud, etc.) for literally thousands of years. The Jews had many sects that were not at all in agreement with each other and still aren't, to this day. Orthodoxy is more of an ideology than a reality. The Catholic church itself broke off from the Eastern Orthodox church over the whole "Filioque" disagreement, even then. Paul was lamenting in his 1st letter to the Corinthians that there were people who proclaimed themselves to be "of Paul" and "of Cephas" and "of Apollo". Now we have "of Calvin" and "of Luther" and "of Augustine" and "of Arminius" and on and on and on, 10000x worse than what Paul was even dealing with. We've always had schisms and disagreements. Always. Even before there was a Church, believers and religious leaders have disagreed on all manner of things. Holy things. Right things. Doctrine things. God things.

It's an absolute miracle, given our history and background and tendencies, that we can agree on anything at all. Honestly.

I've studied the Bible for 2 decades. It's a great mystery to me. You'd think I'd know more by now. I think I know way less than I used to, for all the studying I've done.

"Well, maybe you studied wrong, then."

I don't think so. I think when it comes to God things, the more we seek to know, the less we end up knowing. The more we try to get a grip on the Bible, the more it evades our grip. I don't know how that happens, I only know that it happens. I used to think everything about the Bible was ever so clear and so obvious. I had all my doctrines figured out. 20 years later? It's less obvious and clear than ever.



Anyway when it comes down to it ... I really only know Christ, and Him crucified. Because without His power, when a demon rears its ugly head, there's nothing I can do. And no amount of "doctrine" can change that.

 

In the end that's the most important thing to know. That's salvific. What we've been discussing isn't. God bless Dani. I think this will be one of those agree to disagree situations.

I'm not blowing off the post you wrote. I read it carefully and considered what you wrote.

 

My testimony on this - When I subscribed to BF in 2008 I was (speaking in retrospect) reasonable well educated in Scripture, somewhat above the average Church attender and 100% Protestant, thinking I knew it all. Now 9 years later I know a whole lot more but I have become insecure about many things which were rock solid before 2008.

You sound like me, turning every stone to look if there is truth under it and if not put it back but sometimes find things that keep itching. Curiosity has its price.

 

Me neither hence some points.

[1] One would expect all demons would have drowned during the Flood, this following the Mark 5 story where Jesus drove out 2000 demons into pigs who rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the sea. [v13] Or maybe only the pigs drowned?

[2] 1 Samuel 16:14 - Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him. Whoops....

[3] 2 Peter 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; Applying a literal approach, demons can't be fallen angels since they are locked up in hell. Hello Kierk

Clear as mud?

 

I'll chime in my two cents here. I'm sure I'll get taken to task over it, but so be it. In regards to Dani asking why demons are so keen on possessing human bodies and minds...Well, for one, they're bullies. They want to possess people so they can cause as many problems as they can for the person they possess and other people around them. Satan's minions hate mankind and are keen on destroying their lives in any way they can. Also, I believe the Sons of God referenced in Genesis that went about having sex with human women and creating a race of mutant giant freaks were angels that rebelled against God. They, somehow, had the abilitiy to create bodies so human like (though probably not EXACTLY like humans) that they could actually impregnate women. I think they enjoyed creating physical bodies for themselves (they must have the ability to interact with matter that God created and use it for their own purposes) and they miss not being able to have one anymore (God perhaps took that ability from them or they still posses the ability but don't exercise it because of some horrible punishment they will suffer if they try). They then try to inhabit humans as a second best option. Some people believe (including Dani?) that demons are the "disembodied spirits" of the giant Nephilim that died in the flood in Noah's time. I don't think they are. I believe the Nephilim didn't have spirits. When they died, they just died. They were just mutant freaks and I don't think the union of angelic beings and humans can create a soul or spirit. That's more an ability that God alone possesses. As I stated, I believe the demons are fallen angels that once had the ability to create bodies, can't do that anymore, and try to possess human bodies as a "second best" scenario.

 

There's nothing in scripture stating an angel can't create a physical body (plenty of scriptures actullay give examples of angels having bodies that looked human) and then misuse it by engaging in sexual relations with women. I believe the scripture stating "the angels that forsook their proper dwelling in Heaven" is referring to those angels. They forsook it by coming to the earth when they weren't supposed to and having relations with women.