Why have I never seen this before?!

Discussion in 'Controversial' started by teddyv, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    But if there were more than just Adam and Eve?
     
  2. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    Just a note that I moved this thread to Controversial because of the discussion that spun out of the OP.

    -Ted
     
  3. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Then The entire idea of special creation suffers.

    I don't buy Kinder, Scott, Keller et als hypothesis of special creation of a hominid that arrived through evolutionary processes.

    Jesus used the historicity of Adam and Eve in his teaching on marriage. If I can't trust Jesus on that, I can't trust him with my salabation.

    It's really that simple for me
     
  4. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    Keller?
     
  5. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Before commenting, maybe you can explain again what your beliefs are since I forgot. Two questions in particular, 1) do you see A&E as historical persons? and 2) do you believe A&E (as historical persons) were tested by God and failed?
     
  6. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Agree. I find the idea God tested an advanced ape (created in His image) and hold it responsible for failure bizarre.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  7. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Sorry. Brain spasms. Keller's OK on this point.

    He refutes others that deny the historicity of A&E.
     
  8. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    Trying to get me in trouble now, eh?

    1) I don't know for certain. They may have been. I don't have a problem either way because I personally do not believe that the theology breaks down.
    2) Tougher question. I think all humans struggle with selfishness in general and think that is the basic motivation for pretty much every created organism - it assists the desire to survive and propagate. How/when/where people became accountable to that nature, I have no idea. I dare say humanity was doomed from the get-go.
    Jesus' life and ultimately his act of sacrifice on the cross represents a completely altruistic behaviour- pure selflessness. An impossible state of being for any of us.



    ETA: feel free to get out the pitchforks and torches. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  9. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Where in the Bible does it indicate there was a “creation” BEFORE the creation described in Genesis?
     
  10. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    The possibiliy it's a made up story.
     
  11. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Hehe....
    My thoughts on the bold I am considering for quite some time by now. And with that I mean that there was only one fall, not two, that what we read in Gen 3 Eden is paradiise and we were living in the presence of God, that the devil lured a significent part into his rebellion and as a result we were driven from paradise being born on this preperated earth to find our way back home through Jesus. It isn't Scripture but it solves several theological difficulties, evolution might even true, Original Sin too, because we did sin.
    I prefer a cap pistol shooting with confetti ;)
     
  12. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Some believe that when Genesis 1 says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form, and void, and the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep" means that

    a. there was an earth covered in water prior to God saying "let there be light" and the rest of the story in Genesis 1-3, and
    b. that therefore, there was a creation before the events of Genesis 1:3 and following.
     
  13. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    So, basically, there was “Creation 1.0” For some reason, God didn’t like it and wiped it out. Then, He made “Creation 2.0,” which is where He made the Earth as we know it, the animals, and Adam and Eve? So, in other words, it’s NOT explicitly stated in the Bible and is just speculation (wishful thinking?) on the part of some Christians?
     
  14. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Not exactly.

    The basic model is:

    1. Creation 1.0 Earth formed good without human life. Maybe billions of years ago. Explains age of rocks, etc. Could have had plants and animals. Possible that earth did not rotate on its axis at that time and that the entire "let there be light" and "day and night" thing arises later.
    2. Fall of Lucifer. At some point, Lucifer rebels against God and is cast out of heaven to earth. Lucifer destroys the beauty that God has made. Earth is "formless and void" or as the same words are translated in Isaiah 34:11, "confusion and emptiness". The Spirit of God "broods" over the face of the waters.
    3. Creation 2.0 Starts with "Let there be light" , "day and night", ends up with special creation of man. First steps at redeeming creation that Lucifer ruined.

    2 Peter also alludes to a previous worldwide flood prior to Noah.

    Not just "speculation" or "wishful thinking."

    It's a valid exegesis of Genesis 1:1-3. Not the only valid interpretation, but certainly neither speculation or wishful thinking, any more than you would say that a belief that the earth is roughly 7000 years old is "speculation" or "wishful thinking." Both ideas have some support in scripture, although the so called "Gap Theory" does not have to declare the 7000 years since special creation of Adam and Eve to be false. Gap theory permits the traditional view.

    It cannot, however, be questioned that there was an earth and that it was covered in water prior to "Let there be light." It's just plainly in the text.
     
  15. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Where in scripture does Peter allude to a pre-Noah earthwide flood?
     
  16. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I think it might be 2 Peter 2:4
    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness...
     
  17. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Actually, 2 Peter 3:5-6

    The earth is seen being formed out of water..

    Also, Peter nots that the world perished. Means everything destroyed, which did no happen in Noah's flood
     
  18. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I read those verses and it merely sounds like Peter is talking about the flood of Noah’s time. It doesn’t come across to me as a description of something that happened BEFORE the flood in Noah’s time. I disagree with you. In a sense, the world in Noah’s day WAS “destroyed.” All of mankind, except those on the ark, was killed. They were destroyed. The word “world” sometimes merely refers to people, not necessarily the earth itself. I think some people are trying to make the scriptures say something they don’t explicitly say. I’d have to look more into “gap theory,” but, at this point, nothing anybody’s said, including using a few scriptures, is very convincing to me...
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  19. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Perished means all dead

    The earth was not destroyed in Noah's flood
     
  20. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    So did God recreate certain creatures that survive to this day? Blue-green algae has been around since the Precambrian; brachiopods also still exist. If those were recreated, then why were to trilobites not recreated, why not the dinosaurs, why not all the myriad of extinct species? There is a wild inconsistency with this line of thought.
     

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