What is holiness?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by devilslayer365, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Dani, I'm not going to convince you. Folks can read the thoughts and decide for themselves.

    For the record: My comments on this have nothing to do with being Reformed. I came to this understanding when I was a semi-Pelagian, premillennial dispensatinalistic charismatic who thought the earth was 6,000 years old and hated Calvinism.

    Being Reformed didn't make me think this way about Matthew 5.

    I used to have this in a blog post about ten years ago but I deleted the account otherwise I'd share the link.

    So you think people can live completely sinless lives this side of glorification? Or am I misunderstanding you?
     
  2. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    Yes, if God commands us to achieve a certain way of life, then it's absolutely possible for us to actually achieve it.

    There may be a learning curve involved, and we may have to be given lots of grace and have righteousness and holiness imparted to us, but we have the Holy Spirit who knows what He is doing and is not slacking at His job of growing us into completion/maturity/perfection as long as we cooperate with Him.

    The same Spirit who has power over death and who raised Christ from the dead is joined with us and enabling us to submit, obey, love and walk in the light. Because when God commands us to do something, He also makes Himself available to help us do it.

    The Holy Spirit grows His fruit in us (love, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc), and there is no law against His fruit. At some point that fruit will be ripe and available to other people for them to benefit from it.

    It's really pretty incredible when you think about it. God is such a good Father. I mean really.

    Completion and wholeness is an actual real state that is created by our connection with God. Me + Jesus = one complete unit. Paul addresses this reality countless times in his letters by his statements of "in Christ", "through Christ", etc. They're actual true and real current states of being, as far as God is concerned, achieved through the sacrifice of Christ. He's not dying again and being raised again. It is finished.

    So when that same resurrected Jesus makes Himself not only available to us, but then takes it even further by imparting into us His very Spirit (which is so much better because the physical Jesus could evidently not be everywhere at once, so He gave us His Spirit instead, who can in fact be everywhere at once), then we have everything we need to live a life of holiness, righteousness, perfection and completion today, right now. We have God Himself, His power and His ability, and all we have to do is a) believe it and b) choose to live each moment of each day aware of this connection and be present in it and live our life from it.

    The Christian life is about way more than sin and forgiveness. It's about actual union with God in this here present life. We don't have to wait for it until we're dead and raised again or whatever. As believers, we're already adopted. We're already forgiven. We're already invited to connect. Eternal life is already present with us, today, right now. God is with us, united with us, for us, and available to us, to be experienced in this life where we need Him most. So why wait? God already did all the work that was needed, we have only to receive it and live from it. We have a far better covenant built around far better promises and a far better reality than Israel was given, than Abraham was given, than Noah was given. They all looked forward to something that we get to experience. What a privilege, no? What's left to do except say "thank You", and start living it?
     
  3. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Wouldn't you answer: by being 'in Christ'?

    I'm just not seeing this ending in a sinless life, this side of the resurrection. I'm not fond of Augustine's doctrine of original sin, but even that aside, even the best of us is still too much 'first Adam' to claim the sinless title.
     
  4. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    No because emotions are morally neutral and more of a temperature gauge than anything else.

    Anger/frustration/annoyance happens. I can't control feeling that any more than I can control feeling happiness, sadness, etc. in response to certain situations or people's behaviors. What I can control, is allowing my anger to grow into wrath/hostility and damaging another person with that. What I can also control is figuring out why I reacted to something or someone with anger bubbling up, and what I'm going to do about that, moving forward (if anything). Obviously, having explosive temper tantrums over every little thing I don't like is not okay.

    Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit (this is the part of being "in Christ"). It's grown by me exercising it. Same with patience, kindness, etc.

    Choice is still important just like it has been since Eden. I can always choose to submit to God, regardless of how I feel or don't feel. It all depends on how important that is to me. Everything has a cost attached.

    Let's say for argument's sake that perfection/holiness isn't actually possible --- that still leaves us with the problem of why God would command something that's impossible, and why Jesus and the apostles spent so much time calling people to repentance.

    Sin certainly has power; the Bible is very clear about that. But, God has the greater power. I can't sin against a person when I choose to love them, because love and sin are mutually exclusive.

    Lover is greater than sin, good is greater than evil, light is greater than darkness, life is greater than death.

    Who or what is going to be my master, and who or what am I going to give myself over to? The lesser or the greater?

    My decision. Every time.
     
  5. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Feelings are as much a response to the world as actions are, so I don't think that they're internal makes them 'morally neutral' as a matter of fact. Hatred, for example, is not a morally neutral emotion, and neither is lust. Our feeling a certain way as an reaction, even uncontrollably, doesn't therefore mean that the reaction is neither here-nor-there. It's an imperfection of character not to be in absolute control of one's emotions.

    You choose in spite of how you feel, which is the point I'm making. What you're suggesting here is a bit of slight of hand, I think. God demands maturity, and where there's a problem area - like uncontrolled emotion - it's declared 'morally neutral' (which is to say nothing of its sinfulness, since virtue is not the opposite of sin), whereas if I were God requiring maturity, it would include absolute emotional maturity. Step #1 is being in control of how you react to your emotions, and step #2 is being in control of your emotions.

    No problem at all: what does the Law prove? People can never be righteous. They were still expected to follow the Law regardless. The same with Christ, which is why He imputes His righteousness to us. The point is to demonstrate that we can't do 'it' without God, and it will require a radical renewal of humanity to achieve 'sinless perfection'.

    I can be sinlessly perfect too, I just need to declare every problem area not a sin.
     
  6. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    There's a difference between being in control over one's emotions in the sense of not allowing them to lead to unhealthy actions, and stuffing/denying one's emotions and pretending they don't exist for whatever reason (which is a great way to end up with a mental illness and unhealthy relationships), or confessing them as sin without addressing the underlying cause. We're human, not Vulcan.

    By the time I feel hatred, I've already skipped over bitterness and resentment without addressing them. Which is why Paul said to not allow the root of bitterness to take hold, because inevitably it will lead first to resentment, and then to hatred. Do I stuff that hatred? Do I pretend it's not there? Do I feel ashamed of it and confess it as sin? What do I do?

    If you're going to say "this emotion is sin" ... ok fine, but what do you do about that? How do you grow from it?

    A person who is ashamed of their own feelings and who does not process them properly will always be a person who is unable to mature emotionally. And emotional immaturity leads to a bunch of old children walking around pretending to be adults, making a constant mess of things.

    And from what I have observed, churchy people get very squeamish about dealing with feels because there's not a lot of teaching on them, nor healthy outlets for them, except "certain feels are bad, so do your best to not feel them, or just give them to Jesus or pray about them ... umm ... yea that's about it, so now let's instead talk about the finer points of our Christology, or maybe discuss Zephaniah in its historical context, because the minor prophets are so under-appreciated, don't you think?" :.:

    The Church as a whole is emotionally stunted and does not allow for freedom for humans to be humans and us all telling each other how we really feel and what we're really struggling with and how we're really going to grow together from it rather than isolate one another.

    I can see this is going to be another "we're talking about the same thing in different ways" situation. 8)

    When I say that we can be holy and perfect according to God's commandments, of course I mean "with God".

    There is most certainly a righteousness that comes from the law. An atheist or person of another religious persuasion can of course be righteous according to their own moral standards because they too have been given a conscience by the Creator that teaches them right from wrong. Paul without Christ was righteous according to the Israelite law, but following the law to the letter turned him into a persecutor and murderer of believers in Christ.

    Law minus Spirit = legalism.

    Law plus Spirit = love and holiness.

    The Gospel is a call to man, back into connectedness with a holy God. It's a call to restoration, which is the goal of repentance.

    My point is this: We have not been imparted a lesser Holy Spirit. We have been given the same Spirit who has always been and who is fully God. The Jesus who died for us is the same Jesus who died for the Apostles, and for those we regard as "holy" in our own minds.

    So if we have the same Jesus and the same Spirit, why can't we have the same holiness?

    I understand we live in a fallen world that's more hell than paradise, but still. Why do we have to wait for heaven, when heaven is in fact with us already?

    To be clear, I reject the whole "I've been forgiven" nonsense that people use as an excuse to act any old way they want to because they said a "sinner's prayer" at some point and go to church at least semi-regularly. There are still standards, and those have not changed, because God has not changed. Adultery is still adultery, theft is still theft, lust is still lust, greed is still greed, pride is still pride, etc., and those are still not okay, no matter who does them. As a matter of fact, the standard is higher for God's covenant people than for anyone else, and when God judges He always starts with His covenant people and then continues on to everyone else. Because we know better, and we agreed to it anyway.

    Aaron asked what holiness is, and I'm assuming he's a believer and asks the question in that context. Is holiness possible for a believer in Christ who is living out life here by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with God? The answer is yes, absolutely.

    Noplace in the Bible did God give the command to be holy, to anyone except those in covenant with Himself, those He has set apart for His own special purpose, those who agreed to enter into covenant with Him and be connected with Him and live by His standards. I can't comment on holiness, righteousness, perfection, Law or maturity in any other context, because that's the only context the Bible gives us. The Bible is the story of God and His covenanted people throughout the ages of man. It doesn't go into a lot of specifics of how things work outside covenant.

    Although Romans 2:12 also makes it clear that just because someone is a Gentile outside the Jewish covenant, doesn't mean that sin doesn't apply to that person. It's evidently possible to sin apart from the Jewish law and it's also possible to be a morally good person apart from the Jewish law, because God's moral precepts are still at work in the world, regardless. Murder is murder, theft is theft, lying is lying, kindness is kindness, etc. no matter where you go.

    Being inside the covenant doesn't protect anyone against judgment, and neither does being outside. Because God is God over all of His creation and nobody gets to hide from Him regardless of what faith or lack thereof they proclaim.

    However, if you're going to enter into covenant with Him, then understand the standards go up. However, the good news is that there's perks. Which have zero to do with "you get to go to heaven when you die, and until then life is going to suck so you just hang in there and do the best you can, good fella" -- but rather, "you get to experience a life of being fully restored to God before you die because the Kingdom of heaven is already here and you don't have to wait".
     
  7. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    One more thought: Scripture teaches us that we are a holy people. Which tells me that holiness is something we achieve together.
     
  8. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    And another, to sum up my own train of thought -- which actually has a station -- and it's this:

    When you consider perfection, holiness, and sin ... don't be so hung up on the "do this -- not that". But consider the why.

    The reason God doesn't want us committing adultery, is not so we can go around saying "well, I didn't commit adultery today ... go me!"

    It's so we can have a healthy marriage that's built on trust and respect, and have an actual successful relationship with the person we married.

    The reason God lets us know that murder begins in the heart, with hatred -- is not so we can go around saying "well, I don't have hatred in my heart right now ... go me!" It's so we can have an actual successful relationship with another human being, even when they do things we don't like, and so we don't allow things to escalate to the point where we truly do wish someone off the face of the planet, or God forbid, actually kill another human being.

    The reason we're told to be holy as God is holy ... is because God is absolutely flawless when it comes to building and maintaining solid relationships, and we have much to learn about how to do it right. But learn we must ... not so we can go around saying "look at me, how holy am I?" -- but so we can live in healthy, stable marriages and families and be part of healthy, stable communities. So we can actually enjoy our relationship with God and with other people, and not continually be plagued with guilt, shame, and spiral down a cycle of dysfunction all the time, and create chaos and drama and division wherever we go.

    It's not about not sinning. It's not about being holy and knowing it. It's all about healthy, stable relationships,about unity and about togetherness. Always.

    God didn't create us in our own bubbles and put us on our own individual planets, but instead He created us on one planet that we all have to share with billions of other people. And most of us, let's be honest here ... don't share all that well with others, so we have to be given boundaries and standards on how to do it (at least mostly) right.

    To put it another way -- the reason speed limits in residential zones exist, is to protect people from cars speeding out of control and hurting and killing residents. It's not so we can all say "oh look at me going only 25 mph, how amazing am I for obeying that speed limit and not getting a speeding ticket today?"

    It's not about the rules ... it's about the reason the rules exists and understanding those reasons and agreeing with them (insofar as those rules contribute to healthy, thriving relationships and communities). It's about the spirit of the law, not the letter.

    I wasn't just created for me. I also wasn't just created for me and God. I was created for me, God, and everyone else.

    Whatever you think "heaven" or "paradise" is (if that's what you believe), or the resurrected life in God's fully restored and redeemed creation ... it's most certainly not going to be a place where you'll live in a cave by yourself for all eternity. It's going to be a place of perfect and holy community of God and all of His people together. Of which the Church in the here and now is to be a picture. Obviously we've missed the mark on some things, divided as we are, and we have a lot of work to do, to overcome our divisions and learn what "together" truly means. Because that's what we'll be. Forever.

    If that helps you any.
     

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