Transgender bathroom laws

Discussion in 'Holy Rants' started by devilslayer365, Apr 24, 2016.

  1. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    True, as long accessibility regulations focus on things like the ability to physically use the facility rather than fussing over who should be using which facility.

    I figure withdrawing patronage is the best approach. I often wonder what proportion of the population actually withdraw patronage over issues like transgender bathroom usage or gun free status and what proportion just make a lot of fuss and threaten to withdraw patronage unless Something Is Done. Then I wonder what proportion would take a similar stance but the other way, to what extent store management decide things like what policies to put into place based on placating a small but vocal group, and how much business they then lose from people with opposing viewpoints but less inclination to make a fuss about it.
     
  2. MommaJenny

    MommaJenny Member

    I have been boycotting businesses since I was a teenager over policy disagreements, so to boycott the transgender-accepting stores was a no-brainer for me. The store has the right to have that specific bathroom policy, the transgenders have the right to be happy about it, and I have the right to avoid the store at all cost. That said, most people I know say things like, "I hate Target's transgender restroom policy, but I love their [insert product here], so I shop there anyway." To me, that's hypocritical. And I haven't even begun to mention where I believe it falls in the scope of faith and devotion.

    Those are interesting points, though, Tango. If I had to guess about the statistics of it, I would say that most people aren't going to inconvenience themselves to take a stand. And many of the ones that do, do it in such a hateful manner that it negates their efforts.
     
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  3. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Good observation
     
  4. Scooby_Snax

    Scooby_Snax Rut-Roh

    I like family bathrooms with locks. No one else can come in, regardless, and are available to everyone.
     
  5. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Businesses are going to cater to their customer base and won't concern themselves with who's boycotting them (which to them is meaningless as someone who boycots affects their bottom line the exact same as any other person who doesn't bother shopping there for any other reason) unless an emotional or political or ethical outcry can be directly traced to a significant business loss.

    My personal bottom line is this: Are they doing honest business? Do they defraud customers? That's what I look for, as that is what I see in Proverbs, over and over again. Bathrooms or any other random political leanings and expressions thereof? Not a priority for me. But, to each their own.
     
  6. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    I've often boycotted businesses over aspects I dislike but I usually have to feel very strongly about something before I'll go for an all-out boycott. In any event, as you say, there's an awful lot of hypocrisy going on. Like the people who boycott Target because of their bathroom policy but quite happily sign on to Faceache every day.

    I think to a large extent a boycott still has to answer some basic questions. Since we're on the topic of which bathroom the transgendered should use, it's all well and good to boycott Target over disagreeing with their policy but without a sensible proposal as to what the transgendered should do it's shouting for the sake of shouting.

    It seems to me that the truly transgendered will look like their target gender and therefore nobody is going to notice if they go into the bathroom designated for their target gender. A person who has transitioned from male to female and now presents as female, dressing in female clothes and looking like a woman, using the women's bathroom, isn't going to draw any attention - s/he will simply go into the room, pick a cubicle, do what needs to be done, and leave. The problem with vague terms like "gender identity" is that if someone like me (I'm 6'4, male, present as male, have a beard, there's little doubt I'm a man to any reasonable person) decided that "I feel female today" then I can just wander into the ladies' room and nobody can do anything about it because it seems nobody has the right to challenge my "gender identity". All I'd need is some random comments about how I shave my beard off if I feel female for more than three days in a row but otherwise leave it for when I feel male again.

    And the trouble with what passes for discussion in so much of society these days is that even raising the concern that an inclusive policy may be abused tends to be the trigger to turn on the wailing and accusations of hatefulness and all the rest of it, completely ignoring the fact that nobody is even suggesting that the truly transgendered represent any threat to the other women in the bathroom.
     
  7. MommaJenny

    MommaJenny Member

    So very true. If I want to discuss the possible abuse and ramifications of inclusive policies, I am called a hater and then others hate me. What an incredibly vicious circle it is! And it all begins because I want to have a discussion. I don't even have to say anything about disagreeing with transgenders or anything of the sort.
     
  8. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Hater....

    :rolleyes:

    This is the new way to win an argument.

    1. State your position.
    2. State that anyone that opposes your position is a horrid, bigoted, "fill in the blank-phobe"
    3. Declare victory.
     
  9. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's because the Left conceives of anyone who doesn't agree as morally evil. Of course you should only punch Nazi's. Hey look, everyone is a Nazi.
     
  10. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

  11. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I did nazi that one coming.
     
  12. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Yep, and notice how they typically won't address your concerns about people abusing transgender laws, pretty much implying your concerns aren't legitimate? Sometimes, they may address your concerns, but they just usually say things like, "nobody will pretend they're transgender so they can sneak a peek at naked or semi-naked women." The problem with that is I've read about numerous instances of perverts being busted doing EXACTLY that. :rolleyes:
     
  13. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Is that how it works???
     
  14. MommaJenny

    MommaJenny Member

    Then the argument becomes that perverts have always been around and this sort of thing happened before transgenders started using whichever restroom they choose and it isn't the transgenders who are perverts; it's the pervert who are perverts. At that point, I'd need to take RabbiKnife's advice, call them a horrid hetero-phobe, and declare victory. :D
     
  15. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Or, we can be salt and light, always being ready to give an answer, with meekness and patience, for the hope that is in us.
     
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  16. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    Usually the argument goes along the lines of "are you saying the transgendered are suddenly going to start attacking women?" when nobody is saying anything of the sort. The problem is the freedom to simply claim a gender identity and walk on in, but if people can shift the focus they can accuse you of hating on whatever minority is the cause du jour. Being heterophobic doesn't count because, you know, privilege.

    I think back to the days when the infamous shower scene in Porky's was pretty much on the mind of many (most? all?) teenage boys in school. Now it seems all they have to do is "feel female" that day and walk right on in.
     
  17. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    And the ironic thing is that few people who express a concern are saying that the transgendered are perverts. The concern is that people who aren't transgender can claim to be transgender in the hope of getting a look at some women getting undressed. Funny how people borrowing Hindu symbols for fashion statements are guilty of "cultural appropriation" (whatever that means today) but people borrowing freedoms given to the transgendered can't be singled out without becoming a hater.
     
  18. MommaJenny

    MommaJenny Member

    I couldn't agree more. I have zero fear of true transgenders. And as you said in a previous comment, a true transgender is going to blend and most likely go unnoticed. In a more extreme case, you may come across a person who is in the process and seems a little "off" in a "It's Pat" kind of way. Personally, I have bumped into many people like that and I don't really give it a second thought because I'm not going to judge whether I think they are transitioning or maybe have a medical condition of some sort or whatever.

    Anyway, do I agree that perverts have always been around and committed crimes while infiltrating women's restrooms and changing rooms? Absolutely. Does it make me nervous to think that all of this tolerance and inclusiveness is going to give the perverts license to try it even more? Yes.
     
  19. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    I don't think it will. Because people tend to be very protective of what's theirs. I'm not afraid to call out religious "perverts" because I'm a religious person to my core. So I do think that the truly transgendered will make it a point to protect their own identity and call out the perverts and imposters. I expect this to happen more as they find their own voice and courage to become more visible and vocal. I'm glad we can talk about these things. Too many people have suffered in silence for too long. I'm not always happy about the quality of the dialogue, which often devolves into bickering and silliness, but I'm happy that there is dialogue, because that needed to happen. It's allowed me to discard many of my own prejudices, for which I'm thankful. The more you know ...
     
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  20. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    'Perverts' and 'imposters' are already being called out, but those doing the calling out are largely demonised as being far right, promoting violence against 'X', and so forth. They're the wrong kind of LGBTwhatever. When claims to identity are purely subjective, there are no grounds for suggesting that someone is faking, a transtrender, etc.
     

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