The Curse (Genesis 3:17-19)

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by teddyv, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    Several posts in the Faith thread got me thinking a bit about the curse of the land due to Adam and Eve.

    Not being particular well-read amongst Christian scholars, do most take this as being a complete curse upon creation? This version, that all creation fell (i.e. the entire universe/earth), seems to be at least a fairly common idea amongst many Christians. For example, things like natural events such as earthquakes/tsunamis, hurricanes, drought, et al, may be attributed to the curse because these events generally viewed through the lens in harming humanity. However, the reality is that there events have been happening because they are a product of a dynamic earth and do not seem related to the curse, as the curse itself appears targeted at the earth in an agricultural sense - you are going to work hard to get your food; you are no longer in paradise. Certainly God has used natural events as means of signs or judgement upon nations

    Those of you that know me as a geologist and one who identifies as a evolutionary creationist, I would suggest these events have been happening for far longer than humans have ever been around. But I don't mean this question to turn into a YEC/OEC/TE discussion (although maybe we need one - no Christian forum is complete without a rancorous YEC thread :))

    Anyway, I'm not sure I'm going really anywhere with this...
  2. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    From a biblical perspective, assuming the Noah episode to be an accurate depiction of a world-wide deluge, the change in weather and its effects seem to be more of an effect of a change from that event than from the Curse, as it is clear from the Genesis 5-8 account that Noah experienced the first rainfall.
  3. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    On what basis do you come to Noah experiencing the first rainfall? I know Genesis 2 mentions that the land was watered from a mist of the ground because rain had not yet fallen. I guess it's not specifically mentioned in the intervening time thousand or so years, but that seems like an argument from silence. There were rivers flowing on the earth - these must have been sourced somehow.
  4. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    I understand the curses in terms of God withdrawing Himself. The ground is 'cursed' because (1) God has withdrawn, and (2) is largely at the merciful of disobedient humans. The toil will be painful because we're now the sole toilers; it will product thorns and thistles, and we'll eat the plants of the field, because we've been kicked out of the garden God provided for us. And then, separated from the tree of life, we'll die. There's nothing in the curses that suggest to me a fundamental change in creation, which would require additional creative acts, but no such acts are mentioned anywhere in Scripture. Rather, what I read is a change in circumstance and relationship.
  5. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    By world-wide, do you mean global? I'm assuming teddy's view isn't global.
  6. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I like the way you stated that. I suppose for point (2), not only is the creation at the mercy of humans, but the reverse would also be true as well. There could be a lot of speculation surrounding the relationship between humans and the earth/universe in the new creation
  7. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Yes, quite!
  8. hisleast

    hisleast FISHBEAT!

    It just completely baffles me how people can assume that sin caused there to be predators and parasitic life forms, since there was no death anywhere for anything prior to the fall.
    That somehow lions ate delicious thick juicy fruits and vegetables, harvested in neat little rows from seemingly rigid ground by the lion's powerful forelegs and razor claws. And that botflies must have previously found their homes in some kind of soft shelled watermelons lost since the flood.
    And Lord knows how mushrooms existed in a world without death.

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