So, at what point? (Loss Of Salvation)

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by The Parson, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    OK, you know me and how I believe, it's not gonna happen in my book. But those that say you can loose your salvation, at exactly what point is salvation actually lost? Scripture and verse please!
     
  2. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    I don't know anyone that believes that you can lose your salvation.

    The classical Arminian position would be that someone can reject their salvation.

    Apples and Studebakers.

    I think we are all quite aware of the fact that there is no verse that says "At this point, you are no longer saved."

    I don't know what Wesleyan Arminians believe on this point, as many of them, I believe, do believe in "sinless perfection"... I.E., the Nazarene Churches.

    Arminius himself was somewhat vague, holding to the ability of Christ to enable the believer to persevere, as opposed to the Calvinist position of Christ preserving regardless of behavior. The Remonstrants went so far as to say that the issue of apostasy was a matter for deeper delving into Scripture (Article 5, I think) without making a definitive statement either way. I haven't look at (for years) and don't remember what Zwingli or others held on that issue.

    Some non-Calvinists--- I hesitate to call them Arminian, because they are certainly not Arminian in the classical sense, believe in repeated regeneration, that is, that if you sin, you have to confess that sin and get born again again. Arminius did not believe that.

    I'm not aware of any Arminian theologian that will even try to put a finite description of "the point at which one rejects" salvation.

    I just know that I don't want to try to find out where that line is for myself.

    The essential take away should be, for Calvinists and ARminians, that the goal should not be to prove whether there is a line of no return or not, but to the contrary, to live so close to Jesus that the thought never enters your mind.
     
  3. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    In my early training as a youngster, one of my teachers, the late Hooper Critendon said: "if your going to struggle with the scriptures, don't rely on what Spurgeon, John Calvin or Arminius said... Rely on what God says. And only then consult their take on the matter." When Jesus said "no man shall pluck them out of my hand", I have to take his word that no man, including myself, can leave the royal family once adopted. I'm bought with a price, therefore not my own any more. Therefore, the Father that gave me to Jesus, no man can pluck me out of His hand. End of story type of thing for me.
     
  4. Cloudwalker

    Cloudwalker The genuine, original, one and only Cloudwalker Staff Member

    I'm part Nazarene. (My dad's family was "Old School" Nazarene). And have been associated with many Nazarene's in the not to distant past, and think that they may be shying away from that position these days. Not positive on that, however.

    Those that say you can loose/reject your salvation would argue that "Yes, no man can pluck them out but that doesn't mean they can't jump out on their own."

    Personally I do lean toward OSAS, due in part to the verse in Hebrews, but childhood teaching is hard to shake completely. (Was raised Methodist. Was Methodist before we were United. The church I grew up in is close to 200 years old.)
     
  5. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Yeah, I've heard that one, but wouldn't that be stealing from God? Pearl of great price, belonging to God, can we steal ourselves away from God, sort of thing? Never could buy into that one Dave.
     
  6. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    You sure that's not Oranges and Packards RK?
     
  7. Cloudwalker

    Cloudwalker The genuine, original, one and only Cloudwalker Staff Member

    One of the OT prophets claimed that they were stealing from God. So it can be done. It may be possible but I'm not going to try and argue it. Not sure I buy it any more.
     
  8. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Yeah, that would be just a claim Dave, trust me on that one. Good thought though. Who's sneaky enough to break into Gods Heavenly house and burglarize it?
     
  9. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    For those that believe in no free will, it wouldn't be an issue.

    For those that believe in free will, then essentially OSAS would require that at salvation, one no longer has free will.
     
  10. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Care to go deeper into that RK? I'm not seeing it. The choices are still there, except for the fact that I can't deny my Father, adopted or not.
     
  11. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    If you can't deny your father, adopted or not, then you lost free will in the transaction.
     
  12. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    That doesn't mean that you can't leave His hand by your own choice. Where would we get that from?
     
  13. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    For all the theorizing, I've never actually met anybody who could definitely point at any real live human being and tell me this person had "lost their salvation".

    Other than vague stories of people who knew people, for the sake of dramatic effect .... nothing concrete.

    I don't believe any stories written in books because anybody can make those up.

    I've certainly met people of whom I can say they've made "shipwreck of their faith" or who ended up doubting or who grew out of the beliefs of their youth and it took them a long time to forge their own ... that sort of thing.

    Anyway ... who here actually knows someone of whom you would say "that person was certainly saved once but no longer is" ??

    And based on what Scripture(s) exactly would you say this?
     
  14. hisleast

    hisleast FISHBEAT!

    Most Christians have a built in bias on this question because they are within their own realm of "being a genuine saved Christian".
    I once lived in that realm too, but now I don't. So I think the piont at which someone "loses their salvation" is the point they realize they no longer believe Christianity is God's revelation to mankind.
    Use whatever verb you want to describe the act. "Lost" "Rejected" ... the fact is there is a time when one really sincerely believes and has faith, and a point when they don't.
    You believe in the doctrine one day... and then another day you don't.
     
  15. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    I know of two,people personally.
     
  16. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    I'm a bit suspect of a "salvation" that only ever applies to those on the "inside". Where those who are "condemned" or "lost" or whatever are always and without fail "other people". There's something that just doesn't ring true about such a way of thinking. Christianity isn't a country club with member privileges. It's a call to serve those on the margins of society that everyone else has cast out already ... and to include them. The forgotten. The bottom dwellers. The nobodies who have nothing. The "least of these". As well as the "worst of these", because if Jesus didn't die for the most evil people that mankind has to offer, then who did He die for, exactly?

    I believe that Jesus died for Mother Theresa (or whoever you think of as the best among us), as well as Adolph Hitler (or whoever you think of as the worst among us), and everyone in between. Not only potentially, but actually. I believe that God is inclusive, not exclusive, and that salvation goes way beyond "if you say a prayer to Jesus and accept Him into your heart then you can go to heaven" ... because someone on the "inside" actually bothered to share the "Gospel" with someone on the "outside". If such a "salvation" is actually dependent on me sharing it with other people, then mankind is doomed for sure, and we might as well book our reservations in hell now because that's where we're all headed ... Sorry, all unsaved people who are currently heading to hell because of my non-talking -- my bad for dropping the ball. Your destiny and blood are on my hands, and I'll be joining you wherever you're going, evidently, dragged there by my sin of continuous and persistent omission.
     
  17. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Hmmm, gonna have to ponder on that for a bit...
     
  18. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    On that note, what do you consider Moses asking YHWH to "strike me out of Your book if You're going to strike out all these people" to be? (Ex 32)

    Or Paul being willing to "be cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people"? (Ro 9)

    If one wishes to be cursed/removed for the sake of others, that's fine? If one wishes to be removed or stay outside because they decided it's not for them or they never heard the Gospel preached, it's not fine?

    How does that play out?

    As an intercessor I understand what they were doing, but it doesn't make any theological sense outside of that.

    How come we regard one as sacrificial and worthy of admiration, and the other as selfish and worthy of condemnation?
     
  19. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Yep, still pondering...
     
  20. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Would Apostasy be the correct word to describe someone who denied or renounced their faith. Someone once told me, years ago, that Apostasy was sort of like divorce.
     

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