My first live YEC talk.

Discussion in 'Controversial' started by teddyv, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    This could probably fit in the rants area, but whatever...
    Our school had a presenter on behalf of Creation Ministries International today with talk on Dinosaurs to the high school. I listened in to most of it and found it the typical garden variety arguments that certainly I've heard enough times before (it was aimed for kids of course), complete with the false choice of being Christian means being YEC. There were plenty of other logical fallacies presented. There was even one rather egregious misrepresentation of evolutionary theory which really the presenter should be aware of since he is a high school science teacher. Most of the teachers here were rolling their eyes at the fact this talk was even happening.
    What's really annoying, and this is not CMI's problem, but ours, is that the teachers cannot really discuss with their students because of the perception of suggesting anything but YECism will cause a major ruckus with some of the parents. Ahhh, politics. And a small town.
     
  2. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

  3. hisleast

    hisleast FISHBEAT!

    Seriously Ted, F### this guy. This isn't the case of a kindly soul believing in something due to lack of evidence to the contrary. This is a charlatan, who *purposely* misunderstands and misrepresents the best arguments against his case in order to BLACKMAIL CHILDREN.
    He's poisoning their minds, and teaching them to be both ignorant AND dismissive of challenging ideas. No way I'd let someone press their dark tentacles into my child's mind without a fight. Run him out of town.
     
  4. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I know this of course. Most of the teacher's are not hardcore YEC that I am aware of. I guess it's surprising that they feel they need to walk on eggshells about the subbject for fear parents are going to pull their kids and send them to the other Christian school that is YEC dogmatic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  5. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    He was in town only for the weekend and yesterday so he's not part of our school. He is a school teacher in a very conservative Christian school in the Vancouver area. Our school was not actually that interested in hosting the talk, but as I mentioned due to politics/optics the school was essentially obliged to host. What I don't particularly like is the reticence to allow a contrary voice to be heard.
     
  6. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    You've heard this guy speak before, right?

    Let the school host a YEC talk, then let them discuss it, as these students probably will among themselves (the majority of which will leave the faith within a couple years after they graduate). The problem is the inability to discuss and dissect what was said, not that a high school teacher gave a talk to high school students, who are at school to be taught how to think, not what to think -- maybe. And then, if these are high school students, why assume blackmail? If that's the case, then we're looking at a more involved system that envelopes the school, external speakers, parents, church community, etc. Discussion should be welcome, and it's unfortunate that in cases like this, it's rarely possible.
     
  7. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    I think we should ban all speech.
    Ideas are so dangerous.
    All minds should be registered.
     
  8. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    It’s interesting that YEC think that other views cause young folk to depart from the faith. I think YEC is much more likely to cause a non-careful thinker to walk away. I personally think Ken Ham’s book Already Gone proves the opposite message he’s trying to make.
     
  9. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    My wife asked me this morning about why the genealogy in Genesis 5 starts with Adam and then Seth, without mention of Abel or Cain.

    My explanation was that Seth was "in Adam's likeness," i.e., godly, while Cain was an outcast and not of "Adam's likeness", and Abel was, of course dead.

    We discussed briefly the issue of the historicity of Adam (literal, allegory, representative) etc.

    My response was that although I believe in the historicity of a literal Adam and Eve and garden, the absence of one does not impact my faith, as my theology of sin and salvation is theocentric not homocentric.

    She had never considered the options before, but it didn't phase her.

    Many Christians just can't think. Thank God I'm married to one who can.
     
  10. hisleast

    hisleast FISHBEAT!

    From OP: "complete with the false choice of being Christian means being YEC"

    No true Christian would believe anything but YEC.
    If you believe YEC, you're not a true Christian.
    Enjoy your eternity of burning, heretic.
     
  11. hisleast

    hisleast FISHBEAT!

    I'm not suggesting his speech should be halted, but that he should be challenged. Drawn and quartered in dialog.
     
  12. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    To be clear, the words I chose were not stated explicitly like that but there was the definite undercurrent of that idea. The usual "I believe everything in the Bible, from Genesis 1 to the end of Revelation". If challenged on that point I would expect the usual "you are undermining the authority of the Bible".
     
  13. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    I'd consider that a bad argument, not blackmail, but it's not a point I'd care to quibble over ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If his views were open to discussion, I don't think they'd be nearly as problematic as we all assume them to be. I don't agree with Ken Ham, and I'm not diehard YEC, but I can understand how rational people adhere to the view, and it's a disservice to their view that claims like these are made.
     
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  14. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    You’re not diehard YEC. Are you YEC? Never talked about it with you before. Teddy is TE. I’m OEC. How diverse is this group?
     
  15. Cloudwalker

    Cloudwalker The genuine, original, one and only Cloudwalker Staff Member

    Quick question. YEC?
     
  16. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    Young Earth Creationism
     
  17. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    Over the years of the discussions I've had (and you have been also involved in), there is a constant implication that one who holds YEC is, at minimum, in a better, holier, more fathful place than those that don't. How many times in a thread have YEC adherents said that it's not salvific, yet a few posts later, it once again is made into a condition of belief? So, no, I don't consider it blackmail, but it is a false choice. Within Christendom, I would say that the less rational arguments are dominantly on the YEC side. But I can totally live with someone who is YEC.

    YEC groups like AiG and CMI do preach the gospel, I just get the sense that their gospel is not bult just on Jesus, but on Genesis as well, where the latter seems the foundation, rather than the former.

    I am hoping that some of the teachers will find a means of addressing the talk with their students. I think I mentioned that the high school science teacher was thoroughly underwhelmed and was finding holes in the presenter's talk. Even simply pointing out logical fallacies and inconsistencies would be great and probably doable as that does not bother with the specific issues. Another staff member I talked with was also fairly aghast and was likely to have a talk at home with his son who was there.
     
  18. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    My dad is diehard YEC, so I went along with that when I was younger (and it's not a subject I care to challenge him on, because it won't do him any good if I did). For myself, I think I'd be accused of wishy-washiness:

    - I don't think God created by means of 'macro' evolutionary processes, but if 'macro' evolutionary processes did happen, then the odds involved would require God
    - I don't think evolution undermines Christianity, any more than it's a system of explaining the world that doesn't require God (a stupid claim on both sides)
    - I don't think it's impossible that God could have used evolutionary processes to create nearly everything, but specially created Adam and Eve (or the human race generally; I do believe Adam and Eve were historic)
    - I don't think a young earth is necessarily taught in Genesis, and have no qualms if the universe is ~20 billion years old (leeway added for additional age)
    - I do think that we've learned enough about the natural world, that pure YEC isn't possible anymore

    My view at present would come down to: I believe God created (hey, that makes me a creationist, right?), and I'm not overly concerned about the specifics outside of the descriptions in Genesis 1 ff. If YEC turns out to be right, great; if OEC is right, great; if TE is right, great. That said, I'd lean more towards the creation account being not allegory, but not quite history, either. It's an account of the general order, and it was written the way it was for a specific (historical) purpose, and we've inherited it out of that context, and imported it into ours. On my current trajectory, I'd probably end up in that annoying group of people that would tell you to not worry about if Genesis is trying to be historical (but by all means, chase that rabbit), but do worry about what it teaches, and what that means for us.
     
  19. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Oh, I absolutely agree (I'm just not convinced it's blackmail specifically).

    If I were to go back to the place(s) I come from and announce that I couldn't care less about YEC being true or not, it'd be like coming out, or rejecting the Spirit, or something obviously bad. I get the 'Genesis is the foundation from which the rest of the Bible flows' view, but people who disagree with YEC aren't rejecting Genesis (no matter how persistently that's claimed), they're accepting Genesis, just differently. That's the point 'these people' won't allow, and so YEC dresses itself up as scientific, and theological, and philosophical, and some times it is, but mostly it isn't.
     
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  20. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    As an aside, by the reading of my association's code of ethics as a geoscientist, I am obligated to ensure that my chosen profession is not brought into disrepute. So, in case, anyone wondered that is a driving point behind my interest in this, particularly in the areas of geology.
     

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