Miracles don't still occur?

Discussion in 'Controversial' started by devilslayer365, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    This thread has really made me re-think my position on miracles. At least it's caused me to look more into it. Remember I did previously attend an independent Hispanic Charismatic Cult, so there are many things I'm still going over with a fine toothed comb and a magnifying glass.
  2. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Not sure what a "partial outpouring of the Holy Spirit" looks like.
  3. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    The fact that my body is designed to burn almost any organic fuel source, is self-repairing, etc. is miraculous. That's not mundane to me.
    The fact that God has created people with minds that somehow figured out how to develop antibiotics and vaccines and robotic surgery is miraculous to me, not mundane.

    I think miracles happen every day that we blow off as the mundane, but at the same time, I think we often are the Greeks, "looking for a sign."

    We know that Jesus died on the cross to pay the ultimate sacrifice for my sins. What on God's good green earth do I need a sign for?

    My problem with all the "miracle madness" is that signs were for unbelievers, not dirty-diapered thumb-sucking waa waa decades old immature brat Christians.
  4. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I think so, teddy.

    Biblical miracles were amazingly contrary to natural processes. The Jewish council said in regard to Peter healing the lame man...

    What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. (Acts 4:16).

    “We cannot deny it.” Yet no doubt they wanted to deny it! The miracles of Jesus and the apostles could not be denied. The lame man in Acts 3 they said so directly. The blind man in John 9. The lame man in John 5. Nobody could deny these including those who wanted to deny them with every fiber of their being.

    Yet today the so-called “miracles” won’t find one unbeliever saying such. They can’t even get the church to say “we cannot deny it.” Today’s miracles imo are more aptly described as “we cannot substantiate it!”

    Why? I think it comes down to a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of miracles.

    Can God do miracles today? Of course he could.

    But the purpose of miracles has culminated. The purpose was to substantiate prophets and apostles on a revelatory level. We speak the truth today just as they did, but we do not speak new revelatory truth.

    Imo, the purpose of miracles is a serious matter on an apologetic level.
  5. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I want to share a link of Joni Tara speaking at MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference. I think it’s powerful.

    In it she speaks of a time as a young woman where attended a Kathryn Kuhlman event and describes the treatment she received.

    I’ll admit, I wept listening to her describe it.

  6. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    I've heard Joni on this point previously. I concur.
    I'm not willing to say that the period of miracles has culminated because the revelatory period is over. I've got to leave the door open for God revealing himself to whoever He chooses in whatever manner He wishes, understanding that the revelation of the Word is largely available. I am, however, aware of a myriad of unreached people groups, and I'm remiss to make an apologetic finding that God's can't reach them even with the miraculous if He so chooses.
  7. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I think you may misinterpret my use of mundane (but probably not).

    This I certainly would agree with.
  8. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I wouldn’t disagree with any point here generally. The cessstionist view doesn’t say “can’t”. But I’m unaware of reached groups that were previously unreached where undeniable miracles were part of the evangelism or apologetic. God reaches such groups regularly with just the simple preaching of the Gospel.

    Also, my opinion, things you described as miraculous, I wouldn’t. Our bodies burning organic fuel and self-healing from injuries and scientists and doctors discovering abs inventing things all happen daily. That’s not miraculous. That’s normal. They are amazing or astounding things. But because of the regularity it waters down the word “miracle” to call them such.

    They are, imo, great evidences of us being designed and being the result of a Great Designer and not blind chance. I do see those things as valuable elements for a teleological argument for God and things that make the position of atheism hard to buy.

    IMINXTC Time Bandit

    The title of the thread presents "miracles" in a very broad, exhaustive sense, while the OP then opens discussion on the sign gifts of 1 Cor 13 and the topic of healings.

    As TruztGzus points out, miracles, including healings, are not denied by most, including most believers I know. The question then involves the spiritual gift of healing, among others, in light of the cessationist view.

    Healings are not mentioned among the sign-gifts of 1Cor13, while the gift of healing is listed among spiritual gifts in 1Cor 12(v9).

    This post actually adds nothing to the discussion, apparently, but attempts to separate "miracles" from "spiritual gifts," then opens the question of the ceasing of gifts and which ones - a huge discussion, in my experience.

    Also, the question: does God heal through answer to prayer, or does He answer prayer through miracles?

    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  10. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I brought up 1st Corinthians 13 ONLY because it’s an often quoted scripture by some who say miracles, including healings, by God have “ceased.” Because the writing of the New Testament is complete and we “don’t need miracles anymore.”
  11. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    I've only heard people mention that scripture in relation to tongues, but not for miracles. But I think TG has mentioned that as well.
  12. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    Since most cessationists take the perfect in 1 Corinthians 13 to be the eternal state, it has nothing to do with supporting the cessationist position.

    However, it might make some people feel good in their stance against it so it will never go away and they can always find a commentor or two that use it and then a blanket generalization can be made to the entire cessationist movement to write it off because that’s how so many people do theology in the church today (there are guilty parties on any side of any debate that do this).

    Key to winning debates, use the Amalekite method. Pick off the weak ones in the back of the party. Declare victory.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  13. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I’ve heard it used for miracles, including healing. There are some who believe that God, basically, doesn’t do ANYTHING supernatural in origin anymore in our day. That those things “served a purpose” in biblical times, but we “don’t need them anymore.”
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  14. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    Aaron, not sure who you’re talking about here, but you aren’t talking about cessationists at this point.
  15. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Who exactly is this "some" group? They don't appear to have a lot of Biblical knowledge.
  16. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Just various Christians. You can see various people giving their views in person. On forums. On personal blogs. Etc.
  17. Moxie

    Moxie New Member

    I grew up in a denomination that do not believe in miracles. The explanation was that miracles only occurred with Christ, the apostles and those who were given the power of healing, raising the dead etc... directly from the apostles. Since we cannot receive this directly from the apostles we cannot have the gift of the Holy Spirit. I wish I could recall a full explanation but it took years to learn the scriptures correctly, and I'm not much interested in going back. ;) I prefer to know that my God is big enough to do anything.
    Scooby_Snax likes this.
  18. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    I've been instantly healed from minor ailments a few times so there's no doubt that God still heals. On the other hand I've prayed for my severely disabled son since the moment he was born and he's 20 now and ... nothing. So I don't even know, man.

    I also think the things we would consider "miraculous" often happen in areas where modern medicine isn't available, because that's where it's actually needed. Westerners in 1st world countries have been given the "gift of healing" so to speak through science and knowledge. To me that's the same grace, given in a different way. It's truly miraculous what they can do nowadays by way of medicine and technology. Countless lives have been saved through vaccines and medications alone. It's truly staggering. It is God at work, healing people, using the gifts He has granted us. I really do believe that.

    I also believe that the miracles/signs/wonders in OT and NT times were very much tied to "let the true God show Himself", because sorcerers and such did display supernatural signs and so Jehovah/Jesus was showing them up to reveal Himself as superior. Same scenario we have with Moses where the Egyptian sorcerers did their own signs, and Jehovah had to show Himself strong to let everyone know what was up. Jesus did signs and wonders to get people to believe the legitimacy of His claims as Messiah, because there were lots and lots of people running around making those claims, but He actually had the power to back everything up.

    I would imagine similar scenarios play themselves out in places like Africa where spirit healers hold great sway over communities where superstition abounds and the supernatural is feared but also active and very much accepted as real and true. In those cases missionaries and/or apostles preaching the Gospel would have to make a strong showing of the supernatural to counter forces already displaying themselves in power, and show Jesus as superior. Because why follow Jesus if He's not stronger than the village deity which is holding people captive to itself?

    Signs and wonders are a display of power, to counteract and one-up contrary and inferior powers. They always have been and they always will be. It's God showing up saying "I'm God, and I'll prove it to you." Which doesn't happen in the Western world where the dynamics are totally different, and people don't believe in the supernatural to begin with, which requires a different approach altogether. We don't see apostles of Christ going on public display versus the local spirit healers of Smalltown, Georgia. For example. People would be getting arrested and carted off in paddywaggons for a psych eval if that ever happened ... People denying that demons exist ... because early believers made them up, obviously, since they were so highly unenlightened/unevolved ... or somesuch :rolleyes:
    Moxie likes this.
  19. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    I remember when we in 1978 moved to another city I got colds, many many colds. Sometimes a cold was over for a week and the next cold arrived and it went on and on for approx a year with to end in sight. Not the end of the world, but annoying enough not to function properly. I was told it was probably temporarily and related to the sea climate we were used to live and moving 150 km eastward away from the North Sea it is indeed a different climate.

    After approx a year living that way I went to the elders of the Church and asked for anointing with oil in the name of the Lord following James 5:14 and after that the endless loop of colds was over.
    DaniH likes this.
  20. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Imagine that ...

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