Left Behind

Discussion in 'The Last Days' started by MommaJenny, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    MommaJenny raises a good question. How have some of you come to the conclusion that the majority of things discussed in Revelation have already occurred in the 1st century? For instance, Dani, and others, believes that the scripture talking about the number of the beast was fulfilled in Nero, I believe it was, rather than yet to be fulfilled in a future "Anti-Christ" who has yet to lead a New World Order. On what basis do you believe Nero was this individual? How did Nero bring about a "mark" in the hands and foreheads of people, forcing all to accept this "mark" in order to be "able to buy and sell?"
     
  2. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Not having a firm grasp on Eschatology myself, let's break it down to make it understandable.
    Name all the things listed in Revelation you believe are supposed to happen. Then let's look at history to see what's already occurred.
     
  3. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Ok, I'll dig around a little, but let's start with the one I already raised. Why are some people certain Nero was involved with the whole "mark of the beast" thing in Revelation and it's not some future world leader that has yet to rise to power.
     
  4. MommaJenny

    MommaJenny Member

    Thanks for bringing that up, devilslayer. It's an excellent point and one of the (many) reasons this subject confuses me so much. From what little I understand, Nero's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew and I believe that satisfies the mark for many people who see him the anti-Christ of Revelations. What it doesn't satisfy is making the people take the mark, so I'm not sure how that adds up.
     
  5. hisleast

    hisleast FISHBEAT!

    If there's one thing I've learned in 3 decades of churching, its that motivated enough "eschatologists" can make any name... ANY name "add up to" 666.
    The church has lifted its skirt and whored itself so totally and completely to eschatological fantasy and charismatic debauchery its baffles the mind why a God with perfect foreknowledge would hide a legitimate prophecy in an absolute tsunami of BS.

    "Findest thou the needle in yon stack of needles".
     
  6. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    The emporer cult, which required every Roman subject to offer a sacrifice to the Roman emporer could certainly be considered 'taking the mark'. Failure to do so led to martyrdom or torture. Not saying it was specifically that, but it does fit within that context.
     
  7. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    The servants of God are marked in Revelation 7:3. It doesn't seem to be a physical mark. So it's not a stretch to think the mark in Revelation 13 isn't physical.

    When reading, we must always consider the original audience. John wrote to 7 churches in the midst of persecution. Using Left Behind theology (premillennial dispensationalism), most of Revelation is written to a 21st century (or later) audience. This does not make a lot of sense. "Hey guys, I know you're hurting and need encouragement. Let me tell you about a 7-year stretch a couple millennia from now long after you're gone."

    Not sure how that was to help them.

    John expects the readers to be able to calculate the number of the man in Revelation 13. Not sure how the seven churches were supposed to do this with a 21st century anti-Christ. However, if Revelation was written in the 60's instead of the 90's, they could calculate Nero's number.
     
  8. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

  9. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

     
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  10. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    A couple things. If you don't believe Revelation was written for the future, and it's already been "fulfilled," what in scripture is meant for us in our time? Anything discuss how the earth will be when Christ returns? I mean, He hasn't returned yet. We're all still here. That obviously hasn't been "fulfilled." Also, how does Nero play into the mark "causing all, rich and poor, to take a mark that is required just to buy and sell?" What occurred during his reign that correlates with this?
     
  11. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    Few believe none of Revelation is future. Preterists (past) fall into two categories. Full preterists (or hyper preterists) and partial preterists (or moderate preterists).

    Partial/moderate preterists believe most of Revelation is past but the last 2-3 chapters are future.

    Steven Gregg in his four views book of Revelation shares the following....

    As for the impossibility of buying or selling by those lacking the mark (v. 17), David Clark writes:

    This was to boycott or ostracize the Christians, and deprive them of the common rights of citizens, or the common rights of humanity. The pressure of economic distress was to be laid on them to compel them to conform.

    Chilton notes:

    Similarly [the Jewish leaders] organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues “forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated,” and going so far as to put them to death.
     
  12. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    was there an actual mark on the flesh in these scenarios?
     
  13. MommaJenny

    MommaJenny Member

    This is a good point, but @devilslayer365 also makes a good point about what is for us. Is it that everything else has come to pass and all that is left is Jesus showing up?
     
  14. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

  15. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I have no reason to think so.
     
  16. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    A lot of the NT was to suffering Christians: 1 Peter, Hebrews....doesn't mean there isn't stuff in there for us.
     
  17. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Indeed ;)

    666.png
    And this is the best one ever created. Personal opinion of course.

    17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

    Reasoning, the word computer is pretty much universal because its origin is english, the US. I am confident there will be languages that have changed it into something else but I am currently not aware of any. Same acounts for the alphabet, nowadays universal.

    25-30 years ago only few people used the internet, mainly university people to share scientific info with each other, the reason why it was invented and look where we are today, governments depends on internet, the military too, the economy and its end users (we) and its influence is still growing. Fast forward 10-20-30 years, the internet will rule our daily lives. If someone, or some organisation, or nation gets control over the internet then the world is in deep trouble.

    Back to revelation, I believe it's about Israel as the whole OT and NT are about God's dealings with Israel. There is no good reason to read in Revelation something global such of the Left Behind series. We know where Jesus will return, on Mount Olive, that's in Israel, that's why 1948 needed to happen.

    If there is truth in the 666 theory of a future event, after 1948, then the internet can be indeed the second beast, to buy food you need to get access to the internet, an electronic mark (chip) under your skin will allow that.

    Personally, since I am inclined to think that all Scripture was finalized before AD70 including Revelation, I think the people to whom it was addressed understood 666 as Nero or maybe his successor.

     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  18. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    I believe that Revelation was written to call believers to repentance, warn them of consequences of failing to repent, but to also give them hope because of the persecution they were having to endure. It certainly wasn't written to artificially fearmonger and sell books, like it's being used by some today.

    It's the revelation of Jesus Christ, not the revelation of antichrist. Which is honestly such a small and tiny part of the whole thing, I don't know why people make such a huge fuss about it. Revelation, if it applies to anyone today, only applies to believers who are being subjected to honest-to-God actual persecution such as in China and other countries where Christianity is basically outlawed because of oppressive government. Revelation applies to literally nobody in the USA and other countries where people enjoy religious freedom and are free to worship Christ without fear of being imprisoned, tortured and/or put to death.

    If Revelation is causing you to focus on some evil future world empire with some evil religious or political figure at the helm, rather than focusing you on your faith in Christ and giving you hope beyond your current, real trials and tribulations, then I do think you're reading it wrong.

    Certainly it's coded (which is where all the confusion comes from), but the point of that was to prevent endangering people even further, who were already facing heavy persecution, should the letters fall into unintended hands. The intended audience of John's letters would have understood the messages perfectly. If you don't understand it perfectly, then you're not the intended audience; simple as that.

    I believe that most events in it are already past (and having to do with the fall of the Roman Empire and its judgment of the emperor worship cult) except for maybe the events of chapters 20-22. Although, since persecution of the Church has definitely continued throughout the last 2000 years and still happens today, Revelation necessarily remains part of Scripture because its value to persecuted believers cannot and should not be underestimated.
     
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