Discussion in 'Devotions' started by Cloudwalker, Feb 14, 2017.
I didn't know you any Thomist leanings. I'm definitely not without his influence.
One mediocre and two great minds think alike.
I view the entire eternity issue in terms of relationship.
Two guys I've listened to a lot over the years - Sproul & Geisler. Both Thomists. It has to rub off somewhat.
I have the Summa Theological, but I haven't read enough to speak knowingly about it.
So everyone is immortal then?
Here's comments from Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology...
b. Spiritual Aspects: (4) We have not only physical bodies but also immaterial spirits, and we can therefore act in ways that are significant in the immaterial, spiritual realm of existence. This means that we have (5) a spiritual life that enables us to relate to God as persons, to pray and praise him, and to hear him speaking his words to us. No animal will ever spend an hour in intercessory prayer for the salvation of a relative or a friend! Connected with this spiritual life is the fact that we have (6) immortality; we will not cease to exist but will live forever.
And from a non-Calvinist, here's Norman Geisler quoting Arminius...
The soul’s] substance … is simple, immaterial, and immortal. Simple, I say, not with respect to God; for it consists of act and power (or capability), of being and essence, of subject and accidents; but it is simple with respect to material and compound things. It is immaterial, because it can subsist by itself, and, when separated from the body, can operate alone. It is immortal, not indeed from itself, but by the sustaining grace of God. (WJA, II.26.63)
I would say so, but here I think the phrase 'eternal life' is important. Those in hell are immortal, but aren't privy to 'eternal life', while those in the new creation are both immortal, and enjoying 'eternal life'. Being immortal - 'living forever' - is only part of the equation. For example, you would much rather be dead, than immortal but stuck in the vacuum of space between galaxies, so immortality in itself isn't enough; as it's said: location, location, location.
You might be interested in some Feser:
In the first link, under 'Obstinate angelic wills' and 'Obstinate human wills', he explains what I mean, far better than I've explained what I mean.
What's the purpose of the LOF?
So,question for anybody that thinks they can answer. If I, as a Christian (I hope?), still worry about doing or saying things that will send me to hell, does that then mean I'm not truly a Christian? Does fear of going to hell indicate I'm actually heading there and have no hope of avoiding it? In other words, if I am TRULY a Christian, shouldn't I be secure and confident that I WON'T be able to go to hell? ???
If you actually worry about doing or saying things that send you to hell, you need to get a better understanding of grace.
And what sin in the life of,a believer means
And I believe in perseverance , not eternal security!
I agree with RabbiK.
Aaron, there are all types of people:
Those who are saved and know they are saved.
Those who are not and know they are not.
Those who are but are unsure.
Those who aren't but think they are.
I've read your posts for years. I think you are. None of us can read each other's heart. However, I personally have no reason to doubt and I see you as another believer under the construction of God's sanctification process.
Is the question too hard, or just dumb?
Neither. From what I understand the LOF is not an actual literal place but an analogy or figurative thing describing the destruction of the Roman emperor worship cult along with its "priests" and that entire religion that was going to be destroyed and never found again.
Wow... that's certainly one hell for an answer ;D
Lemme think about it.
Ask the opposite question: if you're truly saved, then shouldn't you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're saved? Well, maybe... But how often do you feel truly securely, confidently, absolutely saved? Right now, I don't. I'm having a terrible time in walk; in fact, the worst period in my Christian walk. Am I still saved? I trust that I am, but let me tell you: lately, it's been hard to believe it.
I think we got a bit of markedward there
Excellent guess, you should buy some lottery tickets
In times like these I tend to go back to the moment of conversion and the grace I received then.
I was ~4, so it's hard for me to remember
Speaking of 4 year old's, reminds me of a strory. I think she (my youngest one) was just about 4 years and was playing (actually dancing) on my lap, me sitting on the couch, and then further exhausting my body parts climbing upstairs and when her knees finally were on my shoulders on her way further she suddenly shouted, "I see Jesus, I see Jesus" pointing with her finger to the ceiling. I couldn't see a thing, to busy to keep her in balance but my wife not handicapped by this type of parental duties at that moment saw nothing. But my 4 year old was sure and kept repeating she saw Jesus.
Upon this day not sure what to believe.
Interesting story indeed. Is she saved?
Separate names with a comma.