Faith

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by ProDeo, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    God wasn't born with a sinful nature as we are. He was always perfect and sinless. We are not.
     
  2. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    Not exactly my point Seeking. Let me see if I can clarify after church. Fair enough?
     
  3. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

  4. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Not at all. But many do not think a person truly has free will if they don't have the option to sin. If I adopt that approach...God does not have the option to sin. Therefore, God does not have free will.

    People don't want to say that. So it appears one can be free and unable to sin. Having the option to sin is not a (as opposed to "the") necessary component to free will.
     
  5. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    I'm not very good with those kinds of convoluted thought trains but I believe I got the gist of it and I agree.

    My hangup is that I'm not sure that God belongs in a discussion about free will. Our unchanged minds can't fully fathom His awesome being so it's a bold thing to presume we could make claims about His having free will or not. Why wouldn't He? What can constrain Him? Are we who see through the glass darkly even fit to have such a discussion?
    Nothings stopping a conversation about it of course but what's the point?
     
  6. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    But we are created in His image aren't we? And if so, sin can be overcome by the blood of the Lord. Right? Otherwise, how do we reason away the fact that we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us? That includes abstaining from sin doesn't it? Get my drift?
    Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
     
  7. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    That is the statement of a God fearing man Brian.
     
  8. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Thanks brother. That's the best thing anyone's ever said about me.
     
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  9. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    Well, if Jesus was in fact fully human with free-will and remained sinless, then should it not be possible for another human?
     
  10. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Theoretically I suppose -maybe- would be the best answer to that. But if the apostles couldn't do it what makes you think we can?
    Then again there's that whole "If any man claims to be without sin" verse hanging around. That kind of put's the hitch in the sinless perfection getalong doesn't it?

    Much as I hate to admit it I'm weak and I fall sometimes. Thank God for His grace or I would have been toast many times over bro.
     
  11. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I was thinking about within the context of the new creation, not the current one.
     
  12. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    I think Philippians 4:13 is one of those verses many people take out of context and apply extremely generously. When I read it in context to at least the paragraph it's in, I realize it's a little more specific than people think.

    Philippians 4:10-13
    10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

    From ESV Study Bible Notes:
    Phil. 4:12–13 The secret of living amid life’s difficulties is simple: trusting God in such a way that one can say, I can do all things through him who strengthens me. This does not mean God will bless whatever a person does; it must be read within the context of the letter, with its emphasis on obedience to God and service to God and others.

    So, to answer your questions:
    1) I believe Adam was created in God's image. But we were born after the fall.
    2) Yes, sin has been paid for by the blood of the Lord.
    3) We can't do all things through Christ in the general sense. (See my note above). I certainly can't fly like a bird.
    4) Yes, we have the power to abstain from sin. It is choice as you've said elsewhere. We agree on this.
     
  13. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    I don't believe it was in this instance Seeking. I really don't.
     
  14. IMINXTC

    IMINXTC Time Bandit

    God is free to exercise His will without being constrained, compelled or manipulated by any force outside of Himself.
    Man created in God's image was mentioned. One attribute we share with God is that self-determination, something that was not necessarily lost in the fall.

    Man is tempted, but never compelled.

    (Saving) faith is the prerogitive of that same free-will. If faith is to be considered a gift, a notion which I do not hold to, then it was freely given to all men. Each man, imo, will, or will not respond in faith as an excersise of free-will.

    The general idea that men cannot respond to the Gospel is, in my view, a misinterpreation of several passages.

    Where man is incapable of not sinning, he can no longer justly be guilty.

    What am I talking about?:confused:
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  15. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Just to echo TrustGzus, the consideration goes towards the idea that being able to obey or disobey is a key aspect of freedom; but, God, vis-a-vis His character, attributes, etc., cannot do things that we can do, yet we affirm that God is free, self-determining, uncompelled, etc. We get to the end of the argument with exactly what you're saying: freedom isn't predicated on the choices themselves, but the nature of the being making the choices.
     
  16. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Let the apostles speak to it.

    In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
    11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

    God has will. Paul is blunt about that. Either he is free to do what he wills or he is not free to do what he wills.
     
  17. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    I don't disagree. I think - and this is just my thinking- that if God decided to cause the instant death of the majority of the worlds population and turned the rest into blind lepers He could do so and we still wouldn't have any choice but to sing His glory.
    He's God. He could destroy all of creation at a whim and start all over again in way that we cannot even imagine.

    I think He would never do such a thing because He is the creator of truth and justice and He made certain promises with Israel and then all who would worship and love Him. He gave His word and made promises and our faith is absolutely and unequally based upon who He is and promised to do and that he is holy and just.
    It is only in Him that we can completely trust and that's not because of what he can do for us but because of who he has revealed that He is.

    He hates sin of all kind so why would He engage in it? What could ever possibly tempt God? So yes, I agree, He does have a will and He does as He will but we can't possibly understand exactly and 100% the what's and why's of it all. Because he made us this way --as was His will.
     
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  18. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus What does this button do? Staff Member

    Great post, Brian. I especially agree on the "whys". People ask "Why did God do X, Y or Z?"

    Scripture doesn't give answers to many "why" questions. Scripture says X. Accept it. Believe it. Love it. Ask him "why" in glory.
     
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  19. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I think that really is the point of the book of Job.
     
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  20. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    That pretty much brings things right back around to Faith doesn't it.

    I love it when things come together like that. It's like God has a plan or something. ;)
     

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