Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by ProDeo, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Hebr 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

    Luke 7:50 - And he said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

    Matt 7:17 - And Jesus answered, O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you?

    Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith

    Biblical definition of faith

    Hebr 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.


    Hard question, thought about it for quite some time and could not find a satisfying answer.

    Why is faith so important for God?

    We are here for some 70-80 years without seeing God which is est. 0,00000000000000000000......00000000000000000000001% of the time we will be aware of God in all eternity. Faith no longer needed, we will live in a new reality, the reality of knowing. So why this temporarily need to believe (conviction) in the unseen (Hebr 11:1) for only a fraction of eternity, our stay on earth?

    Why would it matter to God when people who do not believe in Him during that fraction of eternity (those 70-80 years) when eventually 999999999999999999999999999999.....999999999999% of their existence they will believe in Him?

    Meaning, there must be a very good reason why God insists on faith, the conviction of things not seen. It's so important that even a person's final destination depends on it.

    So far I came up only with:

    That faith will be always necessary and essential even in afterlife.

    Please extend my horizon.
  2. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I know you pasted Hebrews 11:1 as a definition of faith. Can you put it in your own words?

    I agree with your one line of conclusion.

    IMINXTC Time Bandit

    Such a compelling topic. I used to assume that faith was a unique quality that had to be imparted to men - some have it, some don't.

    I now see faith as a recognition of the truth while unbelief is a willful denial.
    Faith is a reversal of the trend in Romans 1 toward darkness, and all men are capable though not are all willing.
  4. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    That's a complicated question.

    If we take Abraham, Moses etc., God spoke directly with them, faith is easier then. The Jews of the exodus saw the fire column 24/7, ate the daily manna from heaven and for many those miracles were not enough. The Jews in Jesus time saw the healings and other miracles and many still doubted. I would say these people had an advantage (over us) to have faith.

    We on the other hand will have to rely on an 2500 year old book and some of us by the grace of God have experienced a glimpse of Him somewhere in our past which had made us believers. I know Christians (actually most of them) who never experienced God and still believe. I consider the latter group (per John 20:29) as the ones with great faith.

    No other guess?
  5. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    Why would we need "faith" in the afterlife, as ProDeo put it? We'll be with God. In His very presence. "Faith" that He exists would, at that point, be uneccessary.
  6. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    That's why I ask for definitions of faith. How it's defined might determine if it's needed in glory.
  7. DaniH

    DaniH You're probably fine.

    Faith is a trusting response to God when He initiates contact. Regardless of personal cost. I think it matters because it's proof that someone actually trusts Him, because faith without action is dead. It must be activated by doing something. That's how I see it.
  8. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Yeah, that's why I am not satisfied with my own best explanation.

    OTOH, obedience is linked with faith, how else can one be obedient to God? Isn't obedience (some) proof of faith?
  9. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Faith is a gift from God.
    Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
    Faith let's us know those who belong to Him and those who do not. How? Discernment. By their fruits you will know them.
    Faith sees us through the trials and temptations that come our way and leads us to joy when, by the grace of God, we overcome.
    Faith enables us to have an eternal relationship with our God that we love and who first loved us.

    All of that and more Scripture teaches us about faith.

    Will faith be necessary after we have been called up and changed?????

    I don't know but I love the question. I've never thought about it before and can't remember anything in Scripture that touches upon it. Will it still be needed after we are changed?

  10. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    It is an excellent question.

    Do we believe that free will ceases to exist after this life is over? (TrustG need not answer! :) )

    If obedience is evidence of faith, it is obedience if one acts without faith if there is no other option than obedience. And is it obedience if there is no opportunity for disobedience?
  11. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I will answer it though. We have free will now. We will have free will then. We have faith now. We will have faith then.
  12. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Well, there you go!

    Did not mean to infer to cast mud on your good name!
  13. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    I think it's obedience even if there is no ability to disobey.
  14. Kierkegaard

    Kierkegaard Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    God is free even though He can't, e.g. sin, so I agree.
  15. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    I'll have to think about that.

    Where's our resident philosopher when you need him?
  16. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Don't make me hangry Staff Member

    This is my thought exactly. If one must be able to sin in order to truly have free will, then God does not have free will. Therefore freedom to sin is not a necessary component to freedom of the will.
  17. RabbiKnife

    RabbiKnife Open the pod bay door, please HAL.

    Hang on.

    God can't sin, because sin is doing something that God is inconsistent with God's character, so God can't violate who He is, so it's sort of a circular argument.

    God has free will because He has the power of self-determination within the constraints that His existence places on Him, which is none.

    Every creating being has free will in that we have the power of self-determination within the constraints of the universe in which God has placed us.

    So "the inability to sin" seems irrelevant in a discussion of God's free will, IMNSHO.

    Apples and Studebakers.
  18. BrianW

    BrianW Active Member

    Surely some of you aren't suggesting that only component of free will is the choice to sin or not?
    I have to say that I agree with RK's last post on that.
  19. פNIʞƎƎS

    פNIʞƎƎS Connoisseur of Memes Staff Member

    Well that took quite a turn.
  20. The Parson

    The Parson Your friendly neighborhood parson Staff Member

    So does that mean you can't pickup a bushel of apples in a Studebaker? Thinking on that one.
    And doesn't that mean that since we're created in God's image, we CAN be sinless? Sorry, this is a carry-over from another thread I started.

Share This Page