Dilemma

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ProDeo, Sep 15, 2016.

  1. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Yesterday my government passed a law in Congress which obliges all Dutch to speak out if they want to be an organ donor after they died. In case of an abstention to vote you are automatically a donor.

    Already undecided what to do I also wonder if there is any Biblical reasoning to vote yes or no.

    The law needs to pass in the Senate so nothing is yet official.
     
  2. Dani

    Dani You're probably fine.

    Why not, if it will save someone's life?

    I'm an organ donor and have it on my driver's license.

    Being as how in biblical times they couldn't conceive of organ transplants, I doubt you'll find much direction.

    I look at it this way: My body belongs to God who created it. When I'm dead, I won't care. In the resurrection I'm getting a new, incorruptible body anyway, so who cares whether your bits are eaten by worms and dispersed into the universe naturally, or if someone removes a heart or liver and helps another person live longer?

    Everything returns to the dust in the end, and it all goes in cycles.

    Your body, scientifically speaking, isn't a "closed system" anyway. Bits of it are continuously replaced on a microscopic/cellular level. You get a "new body" every 7 or so years as cells are shed and others added.

    The Resurrection on the Day of the Lord will include God's entire physical creation, with every living cell in existence being turned into something incorruptible that can never decay. I therefore wouldn't put too much stock into your body being buried intact or whatever, because in the end it won't matter at all. God knows where every atom is; we don't need to worry about particulars. Your current body has bits and pieces from all over the place in it already, including bits of dead people from long ago (on an atomic and cellular level anyway because that's always in flux and always has been). God's always recycling. :)
     
  3. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    I'm not sure I like the idea of the 'negative option' if passed. That said I wholly support organ donation. I would argue that it would be the last stewardly act one could do.
     
  4. IMINXTC

    IMINXTC Time Bandit

    Absolutely 8)
     
  5. TomH

    TomH Well-Known Member

    If your wife needed a kidney transplant and you found that you were a comparable donor, would you be willing?

    Then you have your answer.
     
  6. TomH

    TomH Well-Known Member

    To further the thought, would you donate a kidney to save your biological brother?
    Or sister? Or son, daughter?
    Would you accept a kidney from any one of those people?

    And, as a Christian, who's your brother?
     
  7. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    A very good friend of ours actually did this, although it was (part of) a liver.
     
  8. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    My concern with this is the concept of presumed consent. I don't have an issue with organ donation, I do have a major issue with the government presuming it can decide what happens to me after I'm dead.

    It's not like it's difficult to register as an organ donor, so however many people who haven't taken that step can be assumed to not wish to be organ donors. My driving license has the organ donor tag but frankly if the government presumed consent I would seriously consider withdrawing consent in protest.
     
  9. IMINXTC

    IMINXTC Time Bandit

    On that, it does seem a potential windfall for harvesters, while desecrating the sanctity of the grave.
     
  10. teddyv

    teddyv The horse is in the barn. Staff Member

    This hearkens the "live organ transplants" scene in Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life".
     
  11. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    That's the thing, it's not like it's difficult to register as an organ donor so arguments based along the lines of "people want to register but they're just too busy" are really pretty lame. If it's too difficult to register the answer is to make it easier to register, not automatically register everyone and require those who object to go through the process that has effectively just been described as being too difficult.
     
  12. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Not sure if you've heard, but you're now required to consent or withdraw consent for organ donation if you renew your drivers license in the UK.

    I'd consent if I wasn't paranoid of harvesting because some vital organ is needed, so treatment is cut short.
     
  13. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I've never appreciated the mindset of "implied consent" and the need to "opt out" if you actually happen not to consent. It's kind of backwards thinking, and a bit presumptuous, and I really don''t like it. Ask me for my consent, not my non-consent, thanks...


    MOD NOTE:
    Modified by SEEKING to remove un-needed word before "backwards"
     
  14. tango

    tango ... and you shall live ... Staff Member

    That isn't really a problem, if you're given a specific "yes or no" choice. The problem comes when you're assumed to have answered "yes" having never been asked, and then have to jump through whatever vague hoops are required to explicitly deny consent.

    I must admit I often wonder how much urgency my treatment would receive if it was clear that if they let me go they could use parts of me to save multiple other people. And so we end up right back in the "live organ transplants" sketch, as teddyv already mentioned.
     
  15. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    And grandkids.

    Absolutely.

    But not the same as allowing doctors to plunder my dead body.
     
  16. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    That and the fact they are taking away my freedom (right) to doubt.
     
  17. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    Amazing consensus :)

    I don't know what exactly bothers me with organ donation, I can't put my finger on it. I need to find out first (also) because of Rom 14:23. I do subscribe to the intention and helping other people is automatic in Christianity.

    Maybe it's just old fashioned selfishness, maybe the issue of death is too scary to make rational decisions, heck, I am not even out if I want to be buried or cremated.
     
  18. ProDeo

    ProDeo What a day for a day dream

    It can trigger a culture of bribery among doctors and nurses, families offering (big) money to end the life of a patient in the inevitable end stage who has given consent by abstention.

    Maybe that's already happening even with the current shortage and long waiting lists. The law is supposed to fix the waiting lists. When organs are plenty temptation will increase.
     
  19. Athanasius

    Athanasius Life is not a problem to be solved Staff Member

    Possibly that organ donation introduces a potential conflict: saving your life on the one hand, and saving the life of someone else on the other. For example, you're seriously injured, there's no guarantee that attempts to save your life will succeed, and there's someone who could use your lungs, another who could use your liver, etc. You would have no problem making this decision yourself, but you don't trust a doctor who's weighing 1 life against multiple lives.

    So in my mind, organ donation isn't just permission to harvest organs after I've died; it's also implicit consent to make a difficult decision where otherwise effort might have gone fully into trying to save my life. Of course, that could be completely off base.
     
  20. devilslayer365

    devilslayer365 Wazzup?!

    I see nothing in scripture that explicitly forbids donating organs, either by direct command or various principles that imply it. I also personally have no problem with donating my organs after I'm dead. After all, I don't need them. What I do have a problem with is a government making donation the default position for everybody and requiring an "opt out" be necessary if somebody doesn't want to, for whatever reason, donate their organs. They're my organs. I get to decide what happens to them. The government doesn't get to have them automatically and then make me jump through hoops if I happen not to want them being used...
     

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